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Alternative to ALT program, what would you have done?
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Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:45 am Post subject:

marley'sghost wrote:

Next year MEXT is addressing the concern of the students' poor English performance by adding a pile of new vocabulary

I taught 4 years in HS. Vocabulary was not really taught there. Instead, students had a crappy reference book called "Word Navi". From it, they could see a sample sentence and little more, and they were required to study about 40 words per week for a 2-minute one-off quiz in homeroom.

Nothing ever was recycled.
The vocabulary had no theme or connection to lessons.
Nothing was ever explained to students; they simply memorized for the quiz.

It was a total waste of time.

Now I teach in university. Students have horrible vocabulary levels. Some know a few higher level words (it's a science uni, so they know some technical words), but they are lost in reading or hearing even some of the most basic vocabulary. So, what was the point of Word Navi experiences, and what will be the point of a "pile of new vocabulary"?

Answer: nothing.

Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:49 am Post subject:

TYO wrote:

I am planning on joining JALT-- is it a good org? How are the conferences and are any of you in the Tokyo chapter? Do they have regular meetings?

In my opinion, JALT has its merits and demerits.

Merits
1. Networking
2. SIG and annual meetings (to present and to learn from presenters)
3. SIG and JALT journals
4. SIGs which allow one to focus on certain fields

Demerits
1. Cost of attending the conferences
2. Many presentations are worthless; unfortunately, even English teachers don't know how to present a lot of the time
3. In most SIGs, only a handful of people are active, so it may appear as if there is an "old boy network" at play, when it is really a bunch of people who just want the SIG journal and invitation to conferences

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:44 am Post subject:

Glenski wrote:

marley'sghost wrote:

Next year MEXT is addressing the concern of the students' poor English performance by adding a pile of new vocabulary

It's the same in HS. Save for they now OVER explain everything. They break down 'I go to the store' like it's astro -physics

steki47

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:06 pm Post subject:

rxk22 wrote:

Save for they now OVER explain everything. They break down 'I go to the store' like it's astro -physics

I see this a lot in my JHS. The JTEs say everything 4-5 times and explain every word in a basic sentence. Even during Bingo, the teachers translate and spell out every word I say.

I really feel this is a wasted opportunity. Students can infer meaning and gradually adjust to material that is just slightly above their level. I know the school is test-based and the teachers have a schedule, but it seems the teachers do not trust the students' ability to learn or comprehend on their own.

Western thinking, my bad.

marley'sghost

Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 255

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:39 am Post subject:

TokyoLiz wrote:

Please note that Marley's Ghost misatributed a quote above to me.

Cool

oops. Please note that Marley's Ghost is an idiot, and an even bigger idiot when it comes to computers.

marley'sghost

Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 255

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:27 am Post subject:

steki47 wrote:

rxk22 wrote:

Save for they now OVER explain everything. They break down 'I go to the store' like it's astro -physics

Bad thinking! Bad! Very Happy

There is more of a traditon that children are wet clay to be molded here in Japan than back home. Also, the teachers often have very low confidence in their abilities. They know their English is not "perfect". So they play it safe and stick with lecture/listen to the CD/repeat.

I don't get as much of the JTE translating everything I say as I used to. Maybe the teachers are changing. I did have one who was translating most everything I said and I called him on it (nicely). I asked him after class, that next time, just as an experiment, he not translate. Just to see if the kids could figure it out. No blame or "I think you should..." just an experiment.
Hmmm, I've been lazy and been letting him backslide. Need to tighten things up next term.

It's funny how what happens is that in class, the students are taught about English. They are not taught a language. They are taught about a language. It's like if when you studied home economics........ you never cooked anything. What's the point?
Oh, I forgot. You'll be tested on how much you remember about it.

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject:

steki47 wrote:

rxk22 wrote:

Save for they now OVER explain everything. They break down 'I go to the store' like it's astro -physics

I think it goes back to the JTs not having confidence in their English, and not knowing how to teach it. So, some of them try to get some practice in.show off by translating everything that you say. Though, as my Japanese has gotten much better, I have noticed that they don't translate things very accurately at all. Which for some of the smarter kids, that may hurt their studies, as they are learning things pretty wrong in the long term.

Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:54 pm Post subject:

FWIW, JTEs are simply not trained to teach EFL. Their backgrounds are usually lit majors, and that doesn't usually mean reading English literature to understand and appreciate it, but rather to translate every sentence. I'm not sure if it's necessarily a confidence issue as rxk22 wrote, but more of a lack of proper training and education.

steki47

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject:

marley'sghost wrote:

I asked him after class, that next time, just as an experiment, he not translate. Just to see if the kids could figure it out. No blame or "I think you should..." just an experiment.
Hmmm, I've been lazy and been letting him backslide. Need to tighten things up next term.

It's funny how what happens is that in class, the students are taught about English. They are not taught a language. They are taught about a language. It's like if when you studied home economics........ you never cooked anything. What's the point?
Oh, I forgot. You'll be tested on how much you remember about it.

I was thinking of asking my JTEs the same thing. I am a bit new to the ALT world and so I am being quiet and merely observing their teaching. But yeah, I have some "experiments" I would like to run.

I don't know if it is always a confidence issue, but more that the JTEs have to get every student through the system and the endless repetition and constant explanations essentially guarantee that everyone understands the material.

During a recent listening exercise I saw the JTEs playing the CD 3-4 times even though 80% of the class raised their hands to answer the questions correctly after the first hearing. I think I could step in and check their comprehension after the first hearing and then and only then play the CD if some get it wrong. I really would like to let the students reach up and grab the new material (L+1) rather than over-explain and bring it down to them. I think many of the students are bright enough to get it the first time.

G Cthulhu

Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject:

steki47 wrote:

I don't know if it is always a confidence issue, but more that the JTEs have to get every student through the system and the endless repetition and constant explanations essentially guarantee that everyone understands the material.

Certainly the situation isn't as simplistic as rxk makes out or wants it to be, but glenski has pretty much covered it IMO: JTL's generally aren't trained in teaching per se and English isn't studied as a language for communication. It's an academic subject, and IMO if that's what the Jpns want it for then that's perfectly fine.

steki47

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:20 am Post subject:

G Cthulhu wrote:

It's an academic subject, and IMO if that's what the Jpns want it for then that's perfectly fine.

Fair enough. Personally, I like to remind myself that I only work 170 days a year. Everything else seems small stuff to me after that. Very Happy

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:25 am Post subject:

Glenski wrote:

FWIW, JTEs are simply not trained to teach EFL. Their backgrounds are usually lit majors, and that doesn't usually mean reading English literature to understand and appreciate it, but rather to translate every sentence. I'm not sure if it's necessarily a confidence issue as rxk22 wrote, but more of a lack of proper training and education.

I think confidence and being trained well, or having your $%&# together go hand in hand. When the teacher lacks training/competence they often lack confidence. Which imho I think is why a lot of JTEs hide behind teh textbook, as it is their safety net. If they don't deviate from it, then they won7t be put into an uncomfortable position.

Same goes for all teachers. Had a prof in college who just read from the book. If you asked a Q, the answer was whatever the book had to say on it. I think he wasn't comfortable in teaching, or he may simply not have known the material well enough to explain it on a college level.

rxk22

Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:31 am Post subject:

steki47 wrote:

marley'sghost wrote:

Yeah, I think the emphasis on repeating till the get it, goes overboard. If you don't get it after 2-3 times, you don't get it. It then needs to be explained. Either things get explained/translated that they all ready know, and is really basic, or they are left with some super complicated material that isn't explained/translated at all. Be nice if they found that happy medium

Glenski

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:37 am Post subject:

rxk22 wrote:

But lacking the proper training comes before the lack of confidence, wouldn't you say? Actually, I guess you did.

As for people's remarks about pointless repetition, I see it as a mark of Japanese society. Repetition necessary to learn kanji, which are not presented in an order of increasing difficulty and which would thereby make it easier to learn. Repetition on the TV news of the same old sentence 4-5 times, just to make sure people get it. It's the basis of rote memorization.

G Cthulhu

Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 1373
Location: Way, way off course.

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:57 pm Post subject:

Glenski wrote:

Repetition necessary to learn kanji, which are not presented in an order of increasing difficulty and which would thereby make it easier to learn.

Actually, no, that isn't necessarily the case. People learn how to learn. There is no "natural" way. If people are taught to simple absorb then that's what they'll do. In that instance the order of things doesn't really make a lot of difference for something like kanji where the complexity does not relate to the meaning or use.

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