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jar
Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 39
Location: UK
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 Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your description of the Leopalace there, found it to be helpful. I'm hoping to return to Japan this year and maybe thinking of Altia Central. I became a little apprehensive though when I read they usually stick you in a Leopalace. Judging from youtube they do look pretty small, but I guess if you don't hoard a lot of crap it may be OK. My two main concerns would be having friends over (too small) and insane lack of cooking space (I like to cook).
Then again, beggars can't be choosers...
Realising now I got spoiled on JET all those years ago: 1LDK in Fukuoka and only cost me about 20k. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| jar wrote: |
Thanks for your description of the Leopalace there, found it to be helpful. I'm hoping to return to Japan this year and maybe thinking of Altia Central. I became a little apprehensive though when I read they usually stick you in a Leopalace. Judging from youtube they do look pretty small, but I guess if you don't hoard a lot of crap it may be OK. My two main concerns would be having friends over (too small) and insane lack of cooking space (I like to cook).
Then again, beggars can't be choosers...
Realising now I got spoiled on JET all those years ago: 1LDK in Fukuoka and only cost me about 20k. |
Cooking space is minimal but if you are an effecient cook (not one of those that uses crazy amounts of space to create a single masterpiece) you should be able to adapt easily enough. I managed to whip up a whole range of dishes to feed my small army (3 guys and a toddler) whilst they took over my room most weekends.
Having friends over may or may not be an issue in the space depending on what you plan to do. I was fine having friends over, but eventually my army started moving in. I was forced to move because the growing number of futons, TVs and games consoles taking up residence in my Leopalace was leaving me with no space to call my own.
Are you required to live in the place that is offered? If not, then use it as a stepping stone and after you have settled in, learnt the lay of the land and visited a few real estate agents, move. Just keep your realisation in mind: you probably had susidized BOE housing back then that was super cheap, furnished and had few or no moving in costs... you're going to have to fork out considerably more for a larger place unless you get placed in super inaka.
I live in a new (as in completed only a couple of weeks before I moved in) 1LDK that is pretty spacious and in a nice part of a decent sized city. It costs me 3x what you paid and is considered good value for the location and size. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Bear in mind that LeoPalace is one of the few places that actually offers furnished housing, too, for people who don't require a guarantor. Other places will have nothing in them -- no furnishings or appliances, sometimes even no light fixtures. Back to the 4 walls concept again. If I'm not mistaken, LeoPalace also asks for all of your rent up front, whether you stay for 1 month or 6 or 12. Is that still their policy? |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| If I'm not mistaken, LeoPalace also asks for all of your rent up front, whether you stay for 1 month or 6 or 12. Is that still their policy? |
I've corrected you on this point a number of times but it continues to slip your mind. Neither I nor any of the regular ESL workers I know have needed to pay all our rent up front.
Yes you can pay for your entire stay up front under one rental system for a discount (a discount that grows the more upfront rent you pay); there are no additional fees or amneties to pay. But that is aimed more at short term residents or for businessmen types who want to use the place(s) as a longer term hotel (so you can buy a number of "tickets" for the upfront payment discount and then use your months whenever or where ever you please).
Or you can pay monthly under the Chintai system which is a regular rental system where you pay for all your amneties directly to the companies concerned. You normally still have to pay for the first two calender months upfront (as is common in other regular rental agreements).
And technically you do actually need to have a guarantor under the Chintai system, but those who do not have one can get around this issue by doing a plan shift; if you pay for a part of your stay upfront you can then shift onto the Chintai plan later without the need of a guarantor.
All of this is explained on their site. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:05 am Post subject: |
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I don't think LP is worth it. You can get a much bigger apt for the same price, or a similar sized one for much less. Guy I worked with was paying 65k a month for a LP near where I have my apt. I pay 80k, but I have a 2ldk.
The washer, crappy internet, TV, and fridge aren't worth the extra rent. You can hit a recycle shop, and buy most of what LP 'furnishes' with the amount you save by not going LP.
Just not worth it imho. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
I don't think LP is worth it. You can get a much bigger apt for the same price, or a similar sized one for much less. Guy I worked with was paying 65k a month for a LP near where I have my apt. I pay 80k, but I have a 2ldk.
The washer, crappy internet, TV, and fridge aren't worth the extra rent. You can hit a recycle shop, and buy most of what LP 'furnishes' with the amount you save by not going LP.
Just not worth it imho. |
In the long-term you might be right. But in the short term Leopalace is both convenient and is actually quite cost effective.
Getting an apartment in Japan can be long-winded, full of endless requirements and costs.
For example, I had to drop the best part of 200,000 yen in key money, agency fees, guarantor's fees (if you don't have one of your own then you will have to pay a company to take on the role) and all the other little things that you get charged for in Japan to get the keys to my new place in my old city (a process that took an entire month even though I'd known which place I wanted and visited it the first day I stepped foot in the agency)... I also had to give 2 months deposit on top of that but I'm not factoring that in since it was "refundable".
For 66,000/month I had a beautiful and large (a little more than 60m2) 2LDK in a block of only 4 units that was a full 10,000 yen less than the size equivalent Leopalace in the area (a block of 2 floored units where I would have had neighbours on two sides as opposed to just the ones in the unit downstairs in my place being of any note).
I would have had to have been in my apartment for a full 18 months at least before I started truely saving though thanks to the initial fees and even longer once you factor in the cost of furnishing the place.
And then there was the guarantor company: I had to supply them with my last 3 months of payslips and/or proof of a guaranteed, current source of income that would convince the company that I would have enough to pay the bills each month and fall back on should I fall on hard times. They even wanted to see proof that I was enrolled in unemployment insurance. How is a new arrival who may not see any income for 2 months supposed to get a guarantor company that demanding to take them on if their employer won't take the role?
And even if you can get around the guarantorship issue, find a place with smaller start up costs and manage to furnish the place for next to nothing, where do you stay for that initial month of a procrastinating landlord, compulsory cool-off period and time needed for the agency to get the paperwork and other bits in order? Unless you are in the middle of a larger city, guesthouses may not be an option.
That's why I standby my opinion that Leopalace is still a decent option as a stepping stone or for people planning to stay for no more than a couple of years.
FTR, your internet quality depends on the size of your block and the usuage of your neighbours. I was in a small block with a number of empty units so I was able to use my Leonet connection for hardcore gaming. If you ended up in a huge block full of students, I could imagine that the connection would prove crappy. Though saying that, you could get your own connection even in Leopalace... |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
I don't think LP is worth it. You can get a much bigger apt for the same price, or a similar sized one for much less. Guy I worked with was paying 65k a month for a LP near where I have my apt. I pay 80k, but I have a 2ldk.
The washer, crappy internet, TV, and fridge aren't worth the extra rent. You can hit a recycle shop, and buy most of what LP 'furnishes' with the amount you save by not going LP.
Just not worth it imho. |
In the long-term you might be right. But in the short term Leopalace is both convenient and is actually quite cost effective.
Getting an apartment in Japan can be long-winded, full of endless requirements and costs.
For example, I had to drop the best part of 200,000 yen in key money, agency fees, guarantor's fees (if you don't have one of your own then you will have to pay a company to take on the role) and all the other little things that you get charged for in Japan to get the keys to my new place in my old city (a process that took an entire month even though I'd known which place I wanted and visited it the first day I stepped foot in the agency)... I also had to give 2 months deposit on top of that but I'm not factoring that in since it was "refundable".
For 66,000/month I had a beautiful and large (a little more than 60m2) 2LDK in a block of only 4 units that was a full 10,000 yen less than the size equivalent Leopalace in the area (a block of 2 floored units where I would have had neighbours on two sides as opposed to just the ones in the unit downstairs in my place being of any note).
I would have had to have been in my apartment for a full 18 months at least before I started truely saving though thanks to the initial fees and even longer once you factor in the cost of furnishing the place.
And then there was the guarantor company: I had to supply them with my last 3 months of payslips and/or proof of a guaranteed, current source of income that would convince the company that I would have enough to pay the bills each month and fall back on should I fall on hard times. They even wanted to see proof that I was enrolled in unemployment insurance. How is a new arrival who may not see any income for 2 months supposed to get a guarantor company that demanding to take them on if their employer won't take the role?
And even if you can get around the guarantorship issue, find a place with smaller start up costs and manage to furnish the place for next to nothing, where do you stay for that initial month of a procrastinating landlord, compulsory cool-off period and time needed for the agency to get the paperwork and other bits in order? Unless you are in the middle of a larger city, guesthouses may not be an option.
That's why I standby my opinion that Leopalace is still a decent option as a stepping stone or for people planning to stay for no more than a couple of years.
FTR, your internet quality depends on the size of your block and the usuage of your neighbours. I was in a small block with a number of empty units so I was able to use my Leonet connection for hardcore gaming. If you ended up in a huge block full of students, I could imagine that the connection would prove crappy. Though saying that, you could get your own connection even in Leopalace... |
Ouch, and what a PIA you had there. I actually signed the contract and moved in within a week. This is is Chiba btw. I also, only paid a months rent and a months deposit upfront. Wasn't a big deal. That's pretty nuts how long your process took. Do landlords in your area not care about making money?
Thing is with LP though, is that you still pay a lot of these fees, they just call them something else, like key fee, and cleaning fee.
I have a guarantor, it costs me like 1000� a month or so. Again no big deal.
I did have to give them pay slips too, again not too much of a problem.
My wife had a LP, and her internet was maybe T1 speed. I guess, as you said, it depends on who lives in your block.
Personally, I think LP just preys on the unknowing, and those without the time/means to furnish an apt. Don't like them.
Though my apt did take 7 months to get the internet connected. Yeah you read that correctly. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| Ouch, and what a PIA you had there. I actually signed the contract and moved in within a week. This is is Chiba btw. I also, only paid a months rent and a months deposit upfront. Wasn't a big deal. That's pretty nuts how long your process took. Do landlords in your area not care about making money |
Do you actually have a private landlord or is your apartment/house owned by a housing company. The process and costs you describe is the same as my current place which is company owned (there is no private landlord) and you deal directly with this owning company meaning a lot of the beaucracy and costs (no third-party real estate agents taking a month's rent as their cut); same reason dealing with LP is easier, faster and cheaper than dealing with private landlords and third-party agents. I actually had to deal with a 4th party company, too, which was hired by the landlord to maintain apartments and represent his interests in housing deals, etc which didn't help matters.
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| Thing is with LP though, is that you still pay a lot of these fees, they just call them something else, like key fee, and cleaning fee. |
Not quite. Firstly, the cleaning fee is not a start up cost so I didn't even count that. Secondly, the key exhange fee with LP is no more than about 20,000 yen; key money in regular rentals can be up to 4 months rent... slight difference there  I can tell you that to move into my Leopalace I paid under 200,000 which included the first two months of rent. I paid that much that in fees alone in my private rental place. I actually had to part with 400,000 (including upfront rent and a damage deposit) to get the keys. But ignoring the rent and deposit, I still paid more than double the fees to get my private apartment compared to LP. And I wasn't fortunate enough to have a local recycling centre nor a car so traveling and delivery costs were going to burn a little and there wasn't even a lot of decent stuff to choose from. I had a choice of 50,000 for old stuff (kuroneko were going to charge about 20,000 in delivery costs) or 100,000 for new stuff from my local YD with free delivery - I got the new stuff; I like new things. Either way, that was 50,000+ that I didn't have to pay when moving into LP.
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I have a guarantor, it costs me like 1000� a month or so. Again no big deal.
I did have to give them pay slips too, again not too much of a problem. |
Mine probably worked out the same in the long run but I had to pay up front for a 2 year period. And it wasn't a problem for me either, but I'd been in Japan for a couple of years (which proves I'm not likely to get homesick and do a runner on them) and had pay slips from a company that that I worked for the entire time and who planned to keep me on. Newbies may find guarantor companies a whole lot less welcoming. Hence the need for a stepping stone place.
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| Personally, I think LP just preys on the unknowing, and those without the time/means to furnish an apt. Don't like them. |
Do you have some bad personal experience with them or something?
As I keep saying; I see LP as a nice starting point for the short-term. They are easy to deal with, can be dealt with in English, don't require guarantors and paperwork that newbies won't yet have, are not indirectly racist (yep some landlords are concerned that big scary foreigners with their foreign ways and lack of knowledge of the Japanese garbage system might inconvenience their other tenant  ), have quite low start up fees, allow people to almost move in next day, have furnished and well maintained places.
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| Though my apt did take 7 months to get the internet connected. Yeah you read that correctly. |
Ouch! That is an extremely long time even for Japan. My private rental took two weeks including getting the okay from the landlord to have hikari fibre installed - well, he'd left standing orders with the 4th party that it was okay as long as no structural holes were being made, so there was an answer already on hand for tenants who happen to ask. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:35 am Post subject: |
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seklarwia,
Yes, the situation at LeoPalace constantly slips my mind. Thank you for helping to explain it. That's why I asked what I did.
Obviously, whoever needs to know about "saving money" in Japan has a lot to chew on with information from this thread alone! Options galore in terms of housing. Just wait until they start dealing with the phone company for phone and internet service!
FWIW,
Cleaning fees (whether from LP or a regular landlord) must be taken into account, I feel. They may not be start-up costs, but they are still things people have to pay eventually. And, even a refundable deposit is money out of someone's pocket initially, so I think people should consider that, too. A lot of people come here with so little money already that they need to know those figures if they are going to move in. We all know how poorly a lot of EFL teachers manage their money. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
seklarwia,
Yes, the situation at LeoPalace constantly slips my mind. Thank you for helping to explain it. That's why I asked what I did. |
I apologise if there appeared to be any tone in my initial remark. I didn't realise that I'd forgotten my emote so it didn't come across as the more joking/teasing remark that I intended it to be. 
| Quote: |
FWIW,
Cleaning fees (whether from LP or a regular landlord) must be taken into account, I feel. They may not be start-up costs, but they are still things people have to pay eventually. And, even a refundable deposit is money out of someone's pocket initially, so I think people should consider that, too. A lot of people come here with so little money already that they need to know those figures if they are going to move in. We all know how poorly a lot of EFL teachers manage their money. |
I agree whole heartedly. I didn't mean to play down the importance of deposits, moving out costs, etc.
I only wanted to simplify and compare only the possible huge difference in non-refundable start up costs.
But you are quite right in that there are many who totally forget to budget for leaving a place or for the sometimes quite excessive "refundable" amounts you might be expected to part ways with.
For anyone whose wondering...
Cleaning normally runs around the 30,000-40,000 mark for regular apartments (I would guess that for larger ones or houses this figure might run higher and I know places that allow pets can cost more to clean too) even if you leave the place immaculate. And this figure can grow quite rapidly if you leave anything that requires disposal. I guess that is something else to think about if you are not planning to be here longterm:
You might need to pay for large or electronic items to be disposed of/recycled. If you furnished your apartment and are not able to take your appliances with you, then you will have to either sell/give them away or pay to have them disposed of. In places like LP (they are not the only company who supply furnished places; just the most widely spread and well known) you don't have to buy appliances, which means you don't have to deal with (and possibly pay for) their disposal later. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
seklarwia,
Yes, the situation at LeoPalace constantly slips my mind. Thank you for helping to explain it. That's why I asked what I did. |
I apologise if there appeared to be any tone in my initial remark. I didn't realise that I'd forgotten my emote so it didn't come across as the more joking/teasing remark that I intended it to be.
| Quote: |
FWIW,
Cleaning fees (whether from LP or a regular landlord) must be taken into account, I feel. They may not be start-up costs, but they are still things people have to pay eventually. And, even a refundable deposit is money out of someone's pocket initially, so I think people should consider that, too. A lot of people come here with so little money already that they need to know those figures if they are going to move in. We all know how poorly a lot of EFL teachers manage their money. |
I agree whole heartedly. I didn't mean to play down the importance of deposits, moving out costs, etc.
I only wanted to simplify and compare only the possible huge difference in non-refundable start up costs.
But you are quite right in that there are many who totally forget to budget for leaving a place or for the sometimes quite excessive "refundable" amounts you might be expected to part ways with.
For anyone whose wondering...
Cleaning normally runs around the 30,000-40,000 mark for regular apartments (I would guess that for larger ones or houses this figure might run higher and I know places that allow pets can cost more to clean too) even if you leave the place immaculate. And this figure can grow quite rapidly if you leave anything that requires disposal. I guess that is something else to think about if you are not planning to be here longterm:
You might need to pay for large or electronic items to be disposed of/recycled. If you furnished your apartment and are not able to take your appliances with you, then you will have to either sell/give them away or pay to have them disposed of. In places like LP (they are not the only company who supply furnished places; just the most widely spread and well known) you don't have to buy appliances, which means you don't have to deal with (and possibly pay for) their disposal later. |
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Inflames
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 486
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: |
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I've lived in 3 different apartments and the most I had to show was a certificate from my work and the current month's payslip. Two places I moved into without any of that - just writing down my work information and paying the fees. Nobody I know has had anything like what Seklarwia described. All the apartments have had a company deciding the policies.
I paid half a month's rent initially for my guarantor company and now it's 10,000 yen every two years. The realtor got Recruit to charge me the regular rate, not the foreigner rate.
IIRC I haven't paid cleaning fees either (I know I didn't when I left but not sure about when I moved in). I know in one place I broke something and the balcony was dirty (I pointed them out to the guy) and he said it looked good otherwise and I had paid key money so I didn't have to worry about that. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| rxk22 wrote: |
| Ouch, and what a PIA you had there. I actually signed the contract and moved in within a week. This is is Chiba btw. I also, only paid a months rent and a months deposit upfront. Wasn't a big deal. That's pretty nuts how long your process took. Do landlords in your area not care about making money |
Do you actually have a private landlord or is your apartment/house owned by a housing company. The process and costs you describe is the same as my current place which is company owned (there is no private landlord) and you deal directly with this owning company meaning a lot of the beaucracy and costs (no third-party real estate agents taking a month's rent as their cut); same reason dealing with LP is easier, faster and cheaper than dealing with private landlords and third-party agents. I actually had to deal with a 4th party company, too, which was hired by the landlord to maintain apartments and represent his interests in housing deals, etc which didn't help matters.
| Quote: |
| Thing is with LP though, is that you still pay a lot of these fees, they just call them something else, like key fee, and cleaning fee. |
Not quite. Firstly, the cleaning fee is not a start up cost so I didn't even count that. Secondly, the key exhange fee with LP is no more than about 20,000 yen; key money in regular rentals can be up to 4 months rent... slight difference there I can tell you that to move into my Leopalace I paid under 200,000 which included the first two months of rent. I paid that much that in fees alone in my private rental place. I actually had to part with 400,000 (including upfront rent and a damage deposit) to get the keys. But ignoring the rent and deposit, I still paid more than double the fees to get my private apartment compared to LP. And I wasn't fortunate enough to have a local recycling centre nor a car so traveling and delivery costs were going to burn a little and there wasn't even a lot of decent stuff to choose from. I had a choice of 50,000 for old stuff (kuroneko were going to charge about 20,000 in delivery costs) or 100,000 for new stuff from my local YD with free delivery - I got the new stuff; I like new things. Either way, that was 50,000+ that I didn't have to pay when moving into LP.
| Quote: |
I have a guarantor, it costs me like 1000� a month or so. Again no big deal.
I did have to give them pay slips too, again not too much of a problem. |
Mine probably worked out the same in the long run but I had to pay up front for a 2 year period. And it wasn't a problem for me either, but I'd been in Japan for a couple of years (which proves I'm not likely to get homesick and do a runner on them) and had pay slips from a company that that I worked for the entire time and who planned to keep me on. Newbies may find guarantor companies a whole lot less welcoming. Hence the need for a stepping stone place.
| Quote: |
| Personally, I think LP just preys on the unknowing, and those without the time/means to furnish an apt. Don't like them. |
Do you have some bad personal experience with them or something?
As I keep saying; I see LP as a nice starting point for the short-term. They are easy to deal with, can be dealt with in English, don't require guarantors and paperwork that newbies won't yet have, are not indirectly racist (yep some landlords are concerned that big scary foreigners with their foreign ways and lack of knowledge of the Japanese garbage system might inconvenience their other tenant ), have quite low start up fees, allow people to almost move in next day, have furnished and well maintained places.
| Quote: |
| Though my apt did take 7 months to get the internet connected. Yeah you read that correctly. |
Ouch! That is an extremely long time even for Japan. My private rental took two weeks including getting the okay from the landlord to have hikari fibre installed - well, he'd left standing orders with the 4th party that it was okay as long as no structural holes were being made, so there was an answer already on hand for tenants who happen to ask. |
I went through an agency. It was a smooth and easy process. But I think it depends on the company and the area. Some areas might be worse than others. My landlord is Daiwa, so they care more about making a buck, than being silly with what not.
Also, since 2008, seems like you can just say you don7t want to pay shikin, and they just cross it out.
I looked at a LP, and in my area, to move in, I had to pay between up front rent, deposit and keymoney, I think it came to 200,000�. To me they just called the fees different things is all. They didn't beat me up when I was a kid or anything.
I guess my problem is, with Japanese realtors/landlords. As they exploit the tenets, and I just don't care for that. LP is the same, they just call their fees something else.
Anyhow, yeah my old place, they told me was internet ready. Which was true on the inside. Outside they weren't hooked up yet. So it took 7 months for the Ojisan construction crew to bring the phone lines the 1km to our apt block  |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Inflames wrote: |
| I've lived in 3 different apartments and the most I had to show was a certificate from my work and the current month's payslip. Two places I moved into without any of that - just writing down my work information and paying the fees. Nobody I know has had anything like what Seklarwia described. |
Apart from the other poster agreed that he had to hand over payslips, too.
| Quote: |
| All the apartments have had a company deciding the policies. |
I think that is where the problem lay. As I said my current place was far simpler to get into because it was company owned. My old one was not.
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| IIRC I haven't paid cleaning fees either (I know I didn't when I left but not sure about when I moved in). I know in one place I broke something and the balcony was dirty (I pointed them out to the guy) and he said it looked good otherwise and I had paid key money so I didn't have to worry about that. |
I'd say you got lucky. Others shouldn't expect to be simply letoff paying fees. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| rxk22 wrote: |
| I looked at a LP, and in my area, to move in, I had to pay between up front rent, deposit and keymoney, I think it came to 200,000�. To me they just called the fees different things is all. |
Exactly; 200,000 including upfront rent. I paid double that to simply get the keys for my private rental. That's why in the short term, LP would have been way better value. |
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