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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| BadBeagleBad wrote: |
| Phil_K wrote: |
Having got through that BIG paragraph, BBB, I have to say I agree with a lot of what you say, but above all, much of the blame for not reaching a proficient level of SPOKEN English is down to the student.
However, I have found it difficult to (politely) get that idea across to the students, as well as the method used in regular schools (memorization and exam passing) not helping to give the student the right mindset for learning languages. |
Oh, absolutely! I have a student right now that I am so frustrated with. She is fairly advanced, I would say very high Intermediate, but she just wants to keep doing more of what she�s been doing, more written work, more grammar. She just needs to TALK, and WRITE, and just doesn�t want to, for whatever reason. If she doesn�t change her mind, I fear she will never advance any further that she is. And this is someone who is smart and motivated and really does want to speak English, but there is just something so ingrained in her that there is a correct way to do it that she can�t let go of.
Then there are those who like the idea of speaking English but really don�t want to do the work, and schools really contribute to that with their, you gotta have a book attitude. The best student I have had in recent years was a man who just wanted to talk, and listen, have me correct is errors, maybe with a brief explanation of why. We did all kinds of cool things, from reading an essay someone wrote about the meaning of the Jethro Tull song �Thick As A Brick� to doing debates on different issues, but all of it was conversation based. Sadly, I did too good a job with him, when I started he had just scored a 450 on the TOIEC and needed to progress to above 800 in a two year period. After the first year he progressed to a 680 and at the end of the second year he got an 820, which no small thing. But, because of that score they discontinued his lessons. I would say he is pretty much Bilingual, well more like quad lingual since he already spoke French and Catalan. But he GOT it, he understood that at some point what you need to do is TALK. I minored in French in college, had the entire framework and at one point could speak pretty good French. But I never really had anyone to talk to, and I would say I have forgotten probably 50% of what I once knew. |
What was it someone once said about learning languages? Practice, practice, practice; and when you're done practicing, practice some more. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| BadBeagleBad wrote: |
| Phil_K wrote: |
Thanks for the paragraph spacing, BBB!
I think you should direct your students to "Benny the Irish Polyglot" blog.
http://www.fluentin3months.com/
Although we don't all have the advantage of being in the country whose language we are trying to speak, this guy just about covers it all in terms of a can-do attitude, how a language isn't difficult, etc, if you navigate around the blog. Above all, he advocates TALKING from day one.
Funnily enough, I have exactly the same problem as you with French, BBB, but I'll be in Paris by Friday, so I'll certainly try to avoid speaking English! |
Thanks, I will do that. And I do agree that you don't have to be in a country where the language is spoken to learn well. I am currently working on an online school (if you live in Mexico and watch TV in Spanish at all you have probably seen their commercials) and am amazed at the level of English some of the students have. Amazed. I always make it a point to ask if they have lived abroad, etc. and the vast majority haven't. What I do see in pretty much all of them is a kind of immersion in English, they try to watch TV and movies in English, read in English, write in English, try to talk to as many people as they can in English AND they are highly motivated and have a real drive to learn English. Classes are small, so they do get a decent amount of talk time in each class, and some of them take a class every day. But based on that, I would have to say that I have some to believe that the single most important factor in learning to speak another language well is really wanting to. |
Oh, but those Mexican soap operas (we have a couple of Spanish channels here in Buffalo) are absolutely terrible! I just can't bring myself to sit through them. |
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BadBeagleBad
Joined: 23 Aug 2010
Posts: 1186
Location: 24.18105,-103.25185
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Chancellor wrote: |
Mexican soap operas (we have a couple of Spanish channels here in Buffalo) are absolutely terrible! I just can't bring myself to sit through them. |
haha, you are a typical man, then, they are made for women, though I think there are more men who watch them than will admit it. I love them, and am not happy unless I am watching at least one.
Netflix has a great selection of movies and series in Spanish, though, if you don't like the telenovelas. |
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DebMer
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 232
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Novelas are what you watch when you want to see women with mascara running down their cheeks.  I always wonder why they don't use waterproof. |
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the peanut gallery
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 264
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Guy,
"What is your ideal for a top applicant to advance the industry?
Im not an idealist. No advancement will happen. There is far too much social/cultural/economic pressure to learn English. There are far too many pirate schools filling the market (ie. taking advantage of the aforementioned group) with sub par services. There are far too many backpacker types willing to accept any job on offer.
No need to do vueltas on this one. We all know the score. |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| DebMer wrote: |
| Novelas are what you watch when you want to see women with mascara running down their cheeks. I always wonder why they don't use waterproof. |
Mascara running down women's cheek adds visual drama to the tales of woe that are the speciality of telenovelas! |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| the peanut gallery wrote: |
Guy,
"What is your ideal for a top applicant to advance the industry?
Im not an idealist. No advancement will happen. There is far too much social/cultural/economic pressure to learn English. There are far too many pirate schools filling the market (ie. taking advantage of the aforementioned group) with sub par services. There are far too many backpacker types willing to accept any job on offer.
No need to do vueltas on this one. We all know the score. |
Yeah that's a pretty common post. I was expecting more than recycling from you though.
Berlitz is one that's always surprised me for not providing better service/job opportunities though...they've been around a long long time. |
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Dragonlady
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 720
Location: Chillinfernow, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| Berlitz is one that's always surprised me for not providing better service/job opportunities though...they've been around a long long time. |
Perhaps they are the Walmart of language schools...
provide cheap products that do the trick,
offer low prices to the limited-income customer,
pay minimum wage to part-time employees who aren't eligible for benefits, hence
attract unskilled workers who are just happy to have a job Both have been around forever, both have owners who are (now) very wealthy, and both will always have customers.
DL |
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DebMer
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Posts: 232
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:59 am Post subject: |
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Tee hee! Too true.
[quote="Isla Guapa"]
| DebMer wrote: |
| Novelas are what you watch when you want to see women with mascara running down their cheeks. I always wonder why they don't use waterproof. |
Mascara running down women's cheek adds visual drama to the tales of woe that are the speciality of telenovelas![/ |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Dragonlady wrote: |
| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
| Berlitz is one that's always surprised me for not providing better service/job opportunities though...they've been around a long long time. |
Perhaps they are the Walmart of language schools...
[list]provide cheap products that do the trick,
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Do Berlitz classes really "do the trick"? |
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MotherF
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 1450
Location: 17�48'N 97�46'W
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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So many things going on in this thread!
I'm not sure if Berlitz does the trick as I've never met anyone who studied there. I know that students can learn at language schools, because I worked at them in Japan. I also know that students don't learn English simply by attending langauge schools. And I've seen a lot of chain school advertizements that seem to suggest otherwise. Which makes me think--shame on the industry. Just as I think gatoraid is an enoumous scam. Or the PRI billing themselves as a "new" option! 
In other news, I'm a woman and I HATE telenovelas. I grew up with US soaps and most people in my lives are avid soap watchers. I can still tolerate US ones but NOT Mexican ones. Like advertisers they have no shame in their efforts to control their viewers. But I do think there is great value in TV watching as a language learning activity. If you don't like soaps and don't like Mexican comedy--you can also watch US shows dubbed into Spanish. Then there is the news, which is another form of Mexican comedy. |
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BadBeagleBad
Joined: 23 Aug 2010
Posts: 1186
Location: 24.18105,-103.25185
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Isla Guapa wrote: |
Do Berlitz classes really "do the trick"? |
I think for some they do. I mean people who work in hotels, waiters, busboys, desk clerks or taxi drivers who work with tourists and don't really need to SPEAK English, just be able to communicate a set of information. And, I think language schools can be OK for an introduction to a language, but that is about it. Past the basic levels you really need someone who knows how to teach, and answer questions, and that doesn't really happen at most language schools. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| BadBeagleBad wrote: |
| Chancellor wrote: |
Mexican soap operas (we have a couple of Spanish channels here in Buffalo) are absolutely terrible! I just can't bring myself to sit through them. |
haha, you are a typical man, then, they are made for women, though I think there are more men who watch them than will admit it. I love them, and am not happy unless I am watching at least one.
Netflix has a great selection of movies and series in Spanish, though, if you don't like the telenovelas. |
I try to catch the occasional futbol match (not to be confused with American football), but the announcers take some getting used to. When I can, I turn on the Spanish subtitles in DVDs I'm watching. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| MotherF wrote: |
So many things going on in this thread!
I'm not sure if Berlitz does the trick as I've never met anyone who studied there. I know that students can learn at language schools, because I worked at them in Japan. I also know that students don't learn English simply by attending langauge schools. And I've seen a lot of chain school advertizements that seem to suggest otherwise. Which makes me think--shame on the industry. Just as I think gatoraid is an enoumous scam. Or the PRI billing themselves as a "new" option! |
I guess I presumed that language schools provided just some basic foundational skills upon which students would then build through other means.
| Quote: |
| In other news, I'm a woman and I HATE telenovelas. I grew up with US soaps and most people in my lives are avid soap watchers. I can still tolerate US ones but NOT Mexican ones. Like advertisers they have no shame in their efforts to control their viewers. But I do think there is great value in TV watching as a language learning activity. If you don't like soaps and don't like Mexican comedy--you can also watch US shows dubbed into Spanish. Then there is the news, which is another form of Mexican comedy. |
Well, soap operas are called that exactly because of the soap advertisements. I agree that watching television can be a good language-learning activity. And news as comedy? That's actually funny (because there's some truth to it), though I'm not sure it's limited to Mexico. |
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Prof.Gringo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 2236
Location: Dang Cong San Viet Nam Quang Vinh Muon Nam!
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| the peanut gallery wrote: |
Guy,
"What is your ideal for a top applicant to advance the industry?
Im not an idealist. No advancement will happen. There is far too much social/cultural/economic pressure to learn English. There are far too many pirate schools filling the market (ie. taking advantage of the aforementioned group) with sub par services. There are far too many backpacker types willing to accept any job on offer.
No need to do vueltas on this one. We all know the score. |
In 7 years, I have not seen EFL wages move one inch. Of course the Cost of Living has gone way up, but teacher pay is the same as when I first came to Mexico. |
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