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PattyFlipper
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 572
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 Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:06 am Post subject: |
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boondoggle: An excellent analysis of the malaise afflicting the Thai 'education' system. It is irreparably broken and will never be fixed; indeed I would suggest that the Thai elite prefer it just the way it is. If little Nit and Somchai were educated, then they might actually start to question the horribly-corrupt, self-enriching cronyism which passes for government in Thailand - and then where would we be?
| plumpy nut wrote: |
(the Indonesia school system is actually much worse). |
I'm no expert on Indonesia or its education system and have had minimal direct engagement with it, but I have traveled quite a bit in the country and have Indonesian friends. It seems to me as a superficial observer that young Indonesians generally have a greater awareness of, and curiosity about, the world around them than their Thai counterparts. They also seem better able to understand references from outside their own culture (mention Einstein to most Thais for example and prepare for the blank stares). Whether or not this is a result of the Indonesian education system, I really couldn't say, however I think that Islam has historically and traditionally placed more emphasis on acquiring knowledge than Buddhism. |
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boondoggle
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| plumpy nut wrote: |
Who would want to be a Thai teacher at a starting salary less than a noodle cart owner. They begin making less than $300 a month. No problem though the salary increases up to $1000 a month close to retirement. 
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What's worse than that is the seniority system. I've seen bright and young Thai teachers get DEMOTED because of some jealous old Thai hag who was trying to flex her muscles in the hierarchy. The constant kowtowing they have to do to totally unqualified "senior" dinosaurs is ridiculous. Creativity and a proactive attitude is often met with disdain, indifference, or even hostility. It's un-Thai after all. 
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Yep, kids who in other societies would be disowned by thier families and would be ditch diggers decide if you stay or are fired.
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You might even get truly unlucky and end up teaching at one of the less reputable "international" schools where the rich send all their spoiled brats who were too dumb to go abroad. Now, imagine a situation where you can get fired for not properly kissing some child's ass. Yes, that also can happen in Thailand. I've seen this situation unfold as well.
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The problem is with Thai culture (that culture that is spiritually superior to western culture ). I don't know, the situation may be getting worse but the kids are getting smarter and more intellegent. So the West is making some headway into Thailand. If you can afford it, it's worth coming to teach in Thailand just to witness and get an idea of the corruption (the Indonesia school system is actually much worse). |
The upcountry kids IQ's are actually dropping because of lack of quality early child care and an environment that is bereft of discipline, structure, and nurture. I won't go too much into the abstract qualities of IQ valuation but from what i've seen it does make sense. Many Thai kids are raised (or shall I say coddled) by nannies, grandparents, etc.. with no real parental figures in sight. This is why if you ever teach in a government or vocational school many kids still have the emotional composure of 8 year olds when they are 16-22.
The urban kids are definitely smarter but many are spoiled rotten these days and indoctrinated with the Thai sense of materialism and lack of critical thinking. This is a terrible combination for any society. This is why so many Thai kids respond dully to questions outside their immediate sphere of awareness. They are conditioned by the culture to respond and think in this way. It's totally closed off to outside possibilities. |
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MaiPenRai
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 390
Location: BKK
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:01 am Post subject: |
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Anybody who thinks teaching ESL/EFL is not a business first doesn't have a clue. Now, I dont necessarily disagree with some comments recently posted but...
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| The upcountry kids IQ's are actually dropping because of lack of quality early child care |
not disagreeing but, statistical evidence?
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| You might even get truly unlucky and end up teaching at one of the less reputable "international" schools where the rich send all their spoiled brats who were too dumb to go abroad. Now, imagine a situation where you can get fired for not properly kissing some child's ass |
Work at a private school in many countries and you will experience this, EVEN in western countries.
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| mention Einstein to most Thais for example and prepare for the blank stares |
Mention Buddha to most Americans/Canadians/etc. and see how much they know.
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| Thai teachers are usually recruited from the applicant pool who didn't know what else to do with their education and defaulted towards teaching. Most Thai teachers did NOT want to be teachers to begin with. So you end up with a lot of teachers who aren't motivated, have bad attitudes, and are poorly trained |
Sounds like half of my B.Ed grad class. Make no mistake that the education field often attracts people because it "looks" easy, has good holidays and has many perks (gov. pension, health care, tenure, tax breaks, interest free loans, respect, etc). Starting salaries for teachers in many U.S. states are less than $30,000/year. That's barely above the poverty line.
P.S. If you havent taught back in your home country, you may not realize that many of these same issues occur in your own system. |
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tttompatz
Joined: 06 Mar 2010
Posts: 1951
Location: Talibon, Bohol, Philippines
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| MaiPenRai wrote: |
Anybody who thinks teaching ESL/EFL is not a business first doesn't have a clue. Now, I dont necessarily disagree with some comments recently posted but...
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| The upcountry kids IQ's are actually dropping because of lack of quality early child care |
not disagreeing but, statistical evidence?
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Actually, at the education leaders forum held in Oct in BKK there was statistical evidence shown based on O-net and other standardized scores that show a general drop of between 5-20% (region specific) across Thailand.
There was NOT a specific reason given for the drop so I don't know about the E.C.C. being necessarily valid as the reason but it is an excuse.
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PattyFlipper
Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 572
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| Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| MaiPenRai wrote: |
Mention Buddha to most Americans/Canadians/etc. and see how much they know.
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Undoubtedly, although I am sure most Americans/Canadians would at least have heard of Buddah even if they know little to nothing about him. I was however comparing Thais and Indonesians (in response to a comment by a previous poster), not North Americans. There is no real cultural reason why young Indonesians should be any more aware of Einstein et al than Thais, but many of them appear to be, suggesting perhaps that their education system is at least attempting to impart some awareness of the world outside their own borders. |
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boondoggle
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| MaiPenRai wrote: |
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| The upcountry kids IQ's are actually dropping because of lack of quality early child care |
not disagreeing but, statistical evidence?
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There were two separate studies done. One by one of the health ministries here and the other from an international organization. The Thai health ministry made the absurd suggestion that they start to add iodine into everything up country. Instead of taking a closer look at environmental and cultural factors they defaulted towards something silly. You can google it up fairly easily so I won't be posting up links here.
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P.S. If you havent taught back in your home country, you may not realize that many of these same issues occur in your own system. |
I see this sort of politically correct argument a lot when it comes to Thailand. Yes, you can find any issue in Thailand's educational system on a micro level in any other country on earth including the better ones like the Scandinavian countries. The issue is how prevalent those issues are and how corrupt the academic system is in comparison. The cultural relativist type arguments don't hold much water when you're comparing standardized tests like the PISA and other benchmarks including competency in business and technology fields. Thailand lags way behind even in Asia it's undeniable.
I have taught students in Thailand from government schools all the way to the most elite university in the country (Chulalongkorn) the standards are embarrassingly low. |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:32 am Post subject: |
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[quote="boondoggle"][quote="MaiPenRai"]
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| The Thai health ministry made the absurd suggestion that they start to add iodine into everything up country. |
Did the international organization ever take a look at the monkeys in Lopburi? A lot ot them have Goiters. Another thing is if Iodine is not to be worried about, why have Iodized salt like the West has. There are areas in the North where people need vastly better nutrition and adding Iodine to the diet is at least a start, because a lack of Iodine will make you deficient mentally. |
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boondoggle
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:23 am Post subject: |
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[quote="plumpy nut"][quote="boondoggle"]
| MaiPenRai wrote: |
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| The Thai health ministry made the absurd suggestion that they start to add iodine into everything up country. |
Did the international organization ever take a look at the monkeys in Lopburi? A lot ot them have Goiters. Another thing is if Iodine is not to be worried about, why have Iodized salt like the West has. There are areas in the North where people need vastly better nutrition and adding Iodine to the diet is at least a start, because a lack of Iodine will make you deficient mentally. |
Correlation does not equal causation. My issue with the study done in Thailand is that they basically blamed everything on lack of iodine with sloppy research. Increasing iodine as a measure in lieu of other academic changes would have been meaningful. As it stands now they see nothing wrong with the current system. They pay lip service every once in awhile about reform but no one is actually serious about doing it. |
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rexbex
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:40 am Post subject: how stressful? |
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| this might be of value to some who are weighing differences between indo and thailand�i had lived and worked in both for at least a year, experienced both from the position of an efl instructor in fairly well-to-do suburban areas. i taught 7-8 grade students at a national-plus k-12 catholic school near jakarta and 10-11 grade students at a supposedly well-regarded k-12 catholic school outside bangkok. i found my neighbors in both areas very friendly�though in �culturally� different ways�and both groups genuinely welcomed those who were at least mindful of their presence. jakarta�s infrastructure was far less accommodating than bangkok�s�from utilities and roads and sanitation. as i was in each for the work and work-related experiences, i have to emphasize that there were few similarities between the educational environments. in indo, there were highly effective curricula and long-tenured local teachers, students who were extremely respectful and studious, often qualifying for international awards and placements. in thailand, effective local teachers were replaced often and seemingly for reasons of personal differences, students were under the correct impression that, once entered, graduation was assured. i thought that the local faculty in indo were much more welcoming to visitors in the efl field, and i have to agree with the comments found above regarding thailand: �autocratic� administrations, better place to visit than to work in, violence in the classrooms and about the campus, pandering to students of affluence and so on. the 7-8 grade students in indo were far and away more intellectually and socially mature than the 10-11 grade students in thailand. would i ever return to either to work? thailand�definitely not, under no circumstances. indo�possibly, but would have to cope with the environmental (pollution et al) and political (corruption) elements, which are difficult. |
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kidefl
Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:42 am Post subject: |
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I taught there 8 years in three provenances. The kids are great, no stress there. The admin is where the stress lives. If you've ever heard of The Peter Principle just apply that.
A lot of teachers have problems with immigration. I learned to play the game and never had a problem. The game is to buy a couple hundred baht worth of fruit or something from one of the carts outside the building, walk in and hand it out.
Driving is stressful. Only in Chang Mai did I experience courtesy on the roadway. Other than that, complete disregard for anyone's safety. |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| MrWright wrote: |
| I am wondering about the intl school gig. Some have mentioned the top-tier intl schools as a good paying option. I am a certified teacher in the states, but honestly don't think I have what it takes to survive/suceed at those schools. I hear it can be brutal and only the best teachers can cut it. I am a pretty good teacher, but not that high-speed, so was wondering what life was like in a more middle-tier intl school. I know the pay is lower, obviously, but in general how low? And what is the quality of life like? Any thoughts? |
Top tier international schools are the only schools that are real schools like you would have in the West. The rest are money making frauds and you won't like them, I guarantee it. So unless you must be in Thailand for some reason (maybe you'll like it here enough to put up with the all the absolute trash that you will have to deal with) only accept a job from a top-tier school. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Future postings addressing the messenger and not the message will result in sanctions. Three such inappropriate postings have just been deleted.
Members observing inappropriate postings are requested to advise the Mod Team by Report Post or PM as soon as possible. |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
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Posts: 6613
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MaiPenRai
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 390
Location: BKK
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| Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:23 am Post subject: |
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| Top tier international schools are the only schools that are real schools like you would have in the West. The rest are money making frauds and you won't like them, I guarantee it. |
This comment is an exaggeration and shows a limited scope of understanding of education and/or Thailand. While there is truth that many language schools and so-called International/Private schools are "money making frauds", there are also great schools in Thailand that are not "Western". Most people that end up hating Thailand and teaching in Thailand never fully understand that they are in a different country and culture than their own and they are not here or wanted here to change the country or culture. The successful teachers learn to work with the system and make small changes with students and within schools after building up a reputation as a caring, dedicated and successful teacher.
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| you won't like them, I guarantee it. |
Thousands of EFL and other subject 'teachers' here would disagree with this statement.
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| So unless you must be in Thailand for some reason (maybe you'll like it here enough to put up with the all the absolute trash that you will have to deal with) only accept a job from a top-tier school. |
That is a LOT easier said than done. Thailand is one of the most highly sought after location for qualified school teachers (QTS and/or B.Ed). The best schools here get hundreds if not thousands of applications for openings. You either need to be damn good, damn lucky or know somebody.
Finally, most 'teachers' who come here have never taught in a western school setting and they base their comparisons to Thai schools from what they remember when they were in school. Well, as a QTS teacher, I can tell you that it is often the same s&*t in a different location. In fact a lot of QTS teachers come to Thailand because they couldn't deal with the BS that comes with working in many Western schools.
To sum up, YES it is stressful as a EFL or subject teacher in Thailand, like it is in most countries, especially if you are not properly trained and/or educated. It's not for everyone, but lots of people are successful in the field in Thailand and other countries. Motivation, flexibility, cultural understanding, hard work, professional development, contacts and most importantly an understanding of your role within the system will often lead to success. |
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milkweedma
Joined: 19 Nov 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| MaiPenRai wrote: |
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| Top tier international schools are the only schools that are real schools like you would have in the West. The rest are money making frauds and you won't like them, I guarantee it. |
This comment is an exaggeration and shows a limited scope of understanding of education and/or Thailand. While there is truth that many language schools and so-called International/Private schools are "money making frauds", there are also great schools in Thailand that are not "Western". Most people that end up hating Thailand and teaching in Thailand never fully understand that they are in a different country and culture than their own and they are not here or wanted here to change the country or culture. The successful teachers learn to work with the system and make small changes with students and within schools after building up a reputation as a caring, dedicated and successful teacher.
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| you won't like them, I guarantee it. |
Thousands of EFL and other subject 'teachers' here would disagree with this statement.
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| So unless you must be in Thailand for some reason (maybe you'll like it here enough to put up with the all the absolute trash that you will have to deal with) only accept a job from a top-tier school. |
That is a LOT easier said than done. Thailand is one of the most highly sought after location for qualified school teachers (QTS and/or B.Ed). The best schools here get hundreds if not thousands of applications for openings. You either need to be damn good, damn lucky or know somebody.
Finally, most 'teachers' who come here have never taught in a western school setting and they base their comparisons to Thai schools from what they remember when they were in school. Well, as a QTS teacher, I can tell you that it is often the same s&*t in a different location. In fact a lot of QTS teachers come to Thailand because they couldn't deal with the BS that comes with working in many Western schools.
To sum up, YES it is stressful as a EFL or subject teacher in Thailand, like it is in most countries, especially if you are not properly trained and/or educated. It's not for everyone, but lots of people are successful in the field in Thailand and other countries. Motivation, flexibility, cultural understanding, hard work, professional development, contacts and most importantly an understanding of your role within the system will often lead to success. |
Systemic corruption and decades of deregulation and neo-liberalism are not "cultural differences" but simply ways that education have been turned into a business from the political top down. Throw in cronyism nepotism, racism and systemic brown nosing and there you have asian education in a few lines. No wonder most english language people from the west end up hating the place. |
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