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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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 Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| The problem I often have with those who believe and follow the practices of revealed religions is that they don't seem happy unless other people believe and follow these practices too. One of the first things I looked into when researching Oman was whether or not they allowed booze. Just for the record, alcohol is not a big part of my lifestyle (I might go out for a few drinks maybe once or twice a month - when I'm away on holidays I usually drink more though), but, for the Gulf, I see it as a barometer for how tolerant that society is. If Oman is going to start implementing a series of laws motivated by religion [I don't buy that they are considering banning alcohol primarily for health reasons] that curtail the liberty of non-Muslim expatriates then, speaking for myself, I might as well move to Saudi. Similar restrictive lifestyle, but, at least over in the Magic Kingdom I could make better money. |
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Tazz
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 512
Location: Jakarta
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| As long as they don't withdraw the liquor permit and provide the shops that I can buy from-it's ok for me. happy to drink at home with mates watching the footie. Some sad and sleazy places selling alcohol here that, quite frankly-should be closed down! [Nightclub at Al Wadi hotel in Sohar, for example.] |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| [I don't buy that they are considering banning alcohol primarily for health reasons] |
I think that it is mainly to try to stop Omanis from drinking. I don't think 90% of Omanis care what expats do as long as they don't have to deal with the negatives (drunk driving... drunks on the street... brawls...).
The problem is actually enforcing the existing laws and if they try prohibition, I doubt it will work any better, though I expect that it would affect the expats by making it difficult to get safe affordable alcohol.
I never had a liquor license, so I wouldn't have noticed.
VS |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| [I don't buy that they are considering banning alcohol primarily for health reasons] |
I think that it is mainly to try to stop Omanis from drinking. I don't think 90% of Omanis care what expats do as long as they don't have to deal with the negatives (drunk driving... drunks on the street... brawls...). |
I have heard of two incidences in Salalah in the last week where people, who have the authority to OK the paperwork on liquor licenses, have refused to do so. The talk on the street is that the English Department head at Dhofar University will not sign the liquor license forms for any of his expat, non-Muslim teaching staff because he is "very religious". The other was a police officer at the CID who wouldn't even look at my friend's completed forms two days ago, based on the excuse he was not accompanied by an Omani (which is in no way a requirement). As to why he wouldn't allow my friend's application to be processed, I can only guess, but my friend suspects it was due to religious sensibilities.
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
The problem is actually enforcing the existing laws and if they try prohibition, I doubt it will work any better, though I expect that it would affect the expats by making it difficult to get safe affordable alcohol. |
Agreed. |
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Geronimo
Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 498
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
The problem I often have with those who believe and follow the practices of revealed religions is that they don't seem happy unless other people believe and follow these practices too. One of the first things I looked into when researching Oman was whether or not they allowed booze.
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I don't buy that they are considering banning alcohol primarily for health reasons. |
That was the first thing you researched? Tolerance aside, Oman is, first and foremost, an Islamic country. Period. And as a guest in the country, you're expected to adjust to the cultural environment---not the other way around.
Regardless of how you feel about the proposed ban, alcohol abuse/alcoholism is a real health issue---one that the Omani government has the right to be concerned about.
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| I think that it is mainly to try to stop Omanis from drinking. I don't think 90% of Omanis care what expats do as long as they don't have to deal with the negatives (drunk driving... drunks on the street... brawls...) |
Agreed. Besides, those expats who may find it harder to purchase booze will figure out a workaround. Otherwise, they certainly won't die if they have to do without it. |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| I have heard of two incidences in Salalah in the last week where people, who have the authority to OK the paperwork on liquor licenses, have refused to do so. The talk on the street is that the English Department head at Dhofar University will not sign the liquor license forms for any of his expat, non-Muslim teaching staff because he is "very religious". The other was a police officer at the CID who wouldn't even look at my friend's completed forms two days ago, based on the excuse he was not accompanied by an Omani (which is in no way a requirement). As to why he wouldn't allow my friend's application to be processed, I can only guess, but my friend suspects it was due to religious sensibilities.. |
The Dean of Rustaq has been refusing to sign permit requests for a couple of years and allegedly his secretaries refuse to type them. The College Manager did it instead but apparently his authority has now been refused by the ROP and teachers have had their applications rejected. |
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Tazz
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 512
Location: Jakarta
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Most importantly, Oman is an Islamic state, rather than the somewhat vaguely defined Islamic country- a term which means nothing. Indonesia is an Islamic country, in the sense that over 90% of it's population are Muslim. But, it is also a parliamentary democracy, so hardliners who wish to see-among other things, alcohol banned and women compelled to wear the jilbab publicly, are kept in check by the notion of democratic freedom and the voice of an elected opposition. The worry here is that no such checks against extremist actions exist. And we are seeing a slide towards increased intolerance and outlawing of certain practices-music in bars, dancing in clubs, and now, as has been proposed, the banning of alcohol in restaurants and hotels. nomad soul is always the great apologist for all things Omani-i hope he/she can see the inherent problem in the comment that expats denied access to the liquor permit will 'figure out a workaround'-this either means consumption in a hotel at a considerable expense, or an illegal purchase for which they could face a hefty fine, imprisonment, or indeed deportation. |
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EFL Educator
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 988
Location: Cape Town
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Oh Man ALCOHOL is now considered HARAM! |
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MuscatGary
Joined: 03 Jun 2013
Posts: 1364
Location: Flying around the ME...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| That was the first thing you researched? Tolerance aside, Oman is, first and foremost, an Islamic country. Period. And as a guest in the country, you're expected to adjust to the cultural environment---not the other way around. |
Yes, except it is they who are adjusting the cultural environment after people have signed up to what appeared (and at the moment still is) a liberal environment albeit less so than a couple of years ago. It would be interesting to hear the screams of outrage back in the UK if it was suggested that everybody who comes there to live must adjust to the 'British way of life!' Maybe I should go back and argue that halal meat be banned on the grounds of animal cruelty for a start? Then we could ban religious gatherings anywhere except for registered and monitored places of worship as happens in the ME. Unfortunately once intolerance starts it never finishes...... |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
The problem I often have with those who believe and follow the practices of revealed religions is that they don't seem happy unless other people believe and follow these practices too. One of the first things I looked into when researching Oman was whether or not they allowed booze.
....
I don't buy that they are considering banning alcohol primarily for health reasons. |
That was the first thing you researched? Tolerance aside, Oman is, first and foremost, an Islamic country. Period. And as a guest in the country, you're expected to adjust to the cultural environment---not the other way around.
Regardless of how you feel about the proposed ban, alcohol abuse/alcoholism is a real health issue---one that the Omani government has the right to be concerned about.
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| I think that it is mainly to try to stop Omanis from drinking. I don't think 90% of Omanis care what expats do as long as they don't have to deal with the negatives (drunk driving... drunks on the street... brawls...) |
Agreed. Besides, those expats who may find it harder to purchase booze will figure out a workaround. Otherwise, they certainly won't die if they have to do without it. |
Hi nomad soul,
Firstly, thank you for your sage advice, but I have adjusted just fine to "the cultural environment." The internationally recognized government of the Sultanate of Oman has decreed that alcohol is legal, albeit heavily regulated, and this has been the situation for years before I came here. In short, they have made the rules and I have played by them and I will continue to do so if and when the laws change.
If an Omani doesn't want to drink, for cultural or religious reasons, then, as far as I'm concerned, that's up to them. Likewise, IMHO, if they do want a drink then they should be treated like adults and be free to make their own decisions. If the state wants to ban Omanis from drinking then, to be honest, I'm not that bothered, but that's not what's being proposed and, as what they are suggesting will effect me, then I have every right to have an opinion. Certainly I don't see how me having a few discrete, legally- purchased beers with my non-Muslim friends, while watching the football, in the privacy of my own home, hurts Oman's "cultural environment". Furthermore, the proposed ban is what is being discussed on this thread and, if the goal posts are being moved, it's by those who are advocating the ban and not "guests" such as myself.
If the ban does go ahead, then, I guess it's their country and that's their right, but I think it's a bad idea for the following reasons:
1. As you said, this is an Islamic country. However, about 40% of the people living here are foreigners, many of whom are not Muslims. The expat community contributes tremendously to the wealth of this nation and I think it is reasonable that some accommodation should be made for this very sizable minority, which, lets be honest, does most of the work around here. Furthermore, if there is an expectation for our fellow countrymen and women to respect the 'cultural differences' of Muslims within our own home countries then I don't think it's unreasonable for the gate to swing both ways.
2. Despite your apparent incredulity, yes, the alcohol ban was one of the first things that I researched about Oman prior to moving here and I have explained why. I see it as a barometer as to how tolerant and open-minded that Muslim society is. It's no coincidence that many of the countries (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran Afghanistan, Sudan, Kuwait) that ban alcohol are the same countries that routinely behead people, where women cannot drive, where women have acid thrown in their face etc., etc., In short, these countries are invariably the hard-line ones that give the Muslim world a bad name internationally and which have no respect for personal liberty. I don't want to live in a place like that and that's why I'm in Oman.
3. Usually I'm not a great fan of 'slippery slope' arguments, but, for this region, I'm not so sure. As I said before, I believe this proposed ban to be motivated by religion and MuscatGary and I have given examples where non-Muslim expats have been prevented from getting liquor licenses because others wanted to impose their religious beliefs on people who do not share them. This is what I think is at work here. Furthermore, unfortunately, in much of the Islamic world, it often seems that the tail wags the dog. The highly devout are much more influential than their numbers would suggest and if they ban alcohol in Oman then what's next? Music? Cinemas? Women driving? It's happened elsewhere, why not here? "Certainly you won't die if you have to do without" these things, but I don't really see that as the point and I most definitely don't want Oman to throw out the decades of progress that they have made under His Highness and for this country to roll over to appease a small percentage of religious fanatics.
4. In Oman, you can openly purchase automatic firearms from the back of a jeep, cigarettes cost next to nothing, the confectionery aisles in supermarkets seem to go on for days, obesity is rampant, as is diabetes, and don't even get me started on their lunatic driving. In short, I think there are much greater health priorities here and, if you want me to seriously take the argument that this proposal is being considered wholly for health reasons, then, I'm sorry but I'd need to see a similar commitment and zeal to combating much worse killers. For example, where's the proposal that puts a 500% tax on cigarettes or, better yet, outlaws them completely? Yes, I am aware that "alcohol abuse/alcoholism is a real health issue". I worked as a bartender for over five years and my father actually died from cirrhosis of the liver at the age of 56. But, drinking in Oman seems to be mostly an expat thing and if "90% of Omanis don't care what we do" as long as we don't practice anti-social behavior then I don't see the problem. If an expat gets into a drunken brawl, or is driving under the influence, etc., then, by all means, throw the book at them, but, I don't see why responsible drinkers should have their freedoms taken away due to the actions of a handful of idiots. Especially when the laws are already in place to deal with them. Besides, as other have said, ceding alcohol distribution to criminals, which is what will happen under prohibition, is hardly in the interests of public safety.
5. The existing system is a good compromise. Muslims are not eligible to receive liquor licenses and they can only legally consume alcohol at designated bars which, outside the major cities, are few and far between. Expat, non-Muslim legal residents can go to bars or liquor stores with a valid license. The amount they can buy is limited every month, the booze cannot legally be consumed in public and the tax revenues raised can go to help fund services, including hospitals and doctors.
Anyway, the above is just my take on it and, of course, others are free to disagree.
Last edited by 1st Sgt Welsh on Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Oman didn't care about alcohol until it became the problem that it is today. I would expect that the authorities feel that they gave an inch (to allow expats to access) and many male locals dived in with great enthusiasm. When I arrived in the 1980s, there were no public clubs - just hotel establishments that were very discreet and those on military bases. I hear that the club scene at many places has developed into something that any conservative person would find offensive and while the West has learned to just ignore it (live and let live), this isn't how these countries tend to work.
From what I hear now, alcoholism has become rampant among younger Omanis with nearly daily car accidents causing daily death and injury. It is very likely causing great distress and problems in local families. The fact that this is haram only makes it more difficult for the government to turn a blind eye.
Basically it is their country and if they choose to make alcohol illegal, they will merely change the problems, (we Americans well know that prohibition doesn't work) but if expats don't like it, the airport isn't all that far from anywhere in Oman, and exit visas are not required.
VS |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| I hear that the club scene at many places has developed into something that any conservative person would find offensive and while the West has learned to just ignore it (live and let live), this isn't how these countries tend to work. |
I can only speak for Salalah, but the bar scene here is, I would have thought, pretty tame. It's mostly just people sitting around, talking, eating and having a few drinks. I have seen punters dancing, but nothing too explicit or immodest, and I haven't seen couples making out or anything. There are a few, what looks to be, 'working girls' around, but they are dressed relatively conservatively and they seem to keep to themselves. I think it's up to the 'John' to approach them and, speaking for myself, they don't bother me and I don't bother them. The 'raunchiest' thing I have seen here was a band at the Crowne Plaza Disco. The band was comprised of a male keyboardist and two attractive Filipino singers, (one who wore a mini skirt and the other was in denim shorts), and they were belting out pop song covers and dancing around a bit.
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
From what I hear now, alcoholism has become rampant among younger Omanis with nearly daily car accidents causing daily death and injury. It is very likely causing great distress and problems in local families. The fact that this is haram only makes it more difficult for the government to turn a blind eye. |
I'd have to defer to those who have been here longer, but, personally, I've seen nothing to suggest that alcoholism is rampant among young people here. In the bars I've been to, it's mostly tourists and expats with a sprinkling of Omanis. If the Omanis are not drinking in the bars then they are drinking illegally and, in which case, I guess God only knows how many of them are doing that, or how much they are drinking.
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
Basically it is their country and if they choose to make alcohol illegal, they will merely change the problems, (we Americans well know that prohibition doesn't work) but if expats don't like it, the airport isn't all that far from anywhere in Oman, and exit visas are not required. |
It seems we are pretty much of the same mind, but, with all due respect, the italics part could be pretty much applied at anytime that anyone is criticizing anything in a country that is not their own. What you are saying is perfectly true, but the generic "if you don't like it - go!" line is the all-purpose retort which could be used in probably half the threads on Dave's, regardless of the country which is being discussed or the problems being outlined. If someone seems to have very little or nothing good to say about a place then I think it's fine (I've done it myself), but, when we are discussing legitimate issues that can or do affect us as either teachers or expats, then, to be honest [and again, I don't mean to be disrespectful], I find it to be a somewhat lazy and obvious argument which does little to enhance the conversation. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:52 am Post subject: |
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Basically our "conversation" means nothing to the situation. And yes, "if you don't like it, leave" is pretty much the proper response to the majority of the whinging on this board. Because, as has also been said any number of times... their ball, their court...
What we want or like doesn't matter a whit. This board doesn't exist to change the laws or rules in any country. It is here to exchange information of current rules, new rules, and good/bad employers.
VS
(and Salalah has always been more conservative than Muscat... which is more conservative than the UAE... etc) |
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