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bharrell · Joined: 25 Oct 2008 Posts: 102

I have reached my saturation point. I will never set foot in Russia or Ukraine as long as I live. I don't know what I was thinking. Well, actually I was fascinated by this culture because it was different and exciting. And the women are beautiful.
But once I got below the surface, I found the people to be cold, dishonest and brutal. Brutality pervades the entire culture. Here are some of the things I observed:

It is considered clever to rip someone off.
The end justifies the means.
Kindness is confused with weakness.
Lying and convoluted logic are acceptable to get what you want.

At least I understand why people want to leave the country.

Of course there are notable exceptions. There are good people here, and it is remarkable they have managed to remain that way, living in such a society. I have a job elsewhere now, and I've never been so glad to get out of anywhere in my life.

If I ever meet another Russian/Ukrainian I will run like hell.

Bradley326 · Joined: 17 Jan 2009 Posts: 14

Just out of curiosity, where exactly were you living and for how long?

canucktechie · Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 343 Location: Moscow

I think most people are quite good hearted, but due to the seriously dysfunctional society there is simply no reason for people to be honest and trusting with anyone other than their own family and friends. It just doesn't get you anywhere.

Actually Russia is not a lot different from many other Third World countries in this regard, it's just that a lot of westerners are slow to see the country that way because it used to be a "superpower". You think that a country that developed atomic weapons had to be a bit more advanced. Well so did Pakistan.

Red and white · Joined: 30 Sep 2007 Posts: 63

My experience of Russia is largely limited to Moscow, though I've travelled elsewhere.

Generally I've found that in a professional sphere, incompetence is about the best I can hope for. At least that's not usually done maliciously.

But socially I've made several good Russian friends, and been treated with great kindness by many people. I understand how the OP reached his conclusions, but I wonder how long he spent here and how many Russians he met socially?

If I was going to give advice (which sounds horribly arrogant, but that's tough - I'm in the mood now!), I'd suggest making an effort with the language, and making an effort to step away from the expat bubble. I've struggled to form genuine friendships with people who want to be able to say '.... my English friend ....', but pitching up at gigs by local bands, watching local football or hockey matches and, on occasion, passing the time of day on the elektrichka has been a very different experience. But maybe I just got lucky.

Having said all that, I don't think I behaved any differently in Azerbaijan, and had real problems there getting to know anyone at all. Switch countries and I'd echo the OP down to the last chorus. Each to their own, I guess ...

jpvanderwerf2001 · Joined: 02 Oct 2003 Posts: 1117 Location: New York

I completely understand the OP's position. After six plus years living in both Ukraine and Russia, I would have a very hard time disagreeing. These countries are not for everyone (meaning foreigners), and I wouldn't recommend it to most.
The best tip I can give for someone who'd like to move long-term to Russia/Ukraine: Learn patience.
Red and White gave some good advice too.

zeke0606 · Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:58 am Post subject: what?

I can understand the points made by the OP and all the rest. I have lived in Russia since 2000 with a side trips to other countries for short term teaching assignments and a new visa.

Although I have never ever lived in Moscow, I have found those obnoxious folks everywhere, in every country. There does seem to be a few more in Russia, however what bharrell listed as serious side effects of the other societal norms are true too.

One thing I might add is this - The farther away from the 'touristy' Moscow and St Pete the less you find obnoxious people, although a lot more naive and sometimes stupid of foreigners and can be very offensive without having a clue of what they have done. I think this 'uncivil' behavior comes from the last thousand years of their government isolating them for the rest of the world and punishing anything that is not 'approved'. Or maybe not!

And as always Red and white is pretty much 'right on' in what was written.

Zeke

zeke0606 · Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:58 am Post subject: what?

I can understand the points made by the OP and all the rest. I have lived in Russia since 2000 with a side trips to other countries for short term teaching assignments and a new visa.

Although I have never ever lived in Moscow, I have found those obnoxious folks everywhere, in every country. There does seem to be a few more in Russia, however what bharrell listed as serious side effects of the other societal norms are true too.

One thing I might add is this - The farther away from the 'touristy' Moscow and St Pete the less you find obnoxious people, although a lot more naive and sometimes stupid of foreigners and can be very offensive without having a clue of what they have done. I think this 'uncivil' behavior comes from the last thousand years of their government isolating them for the rest of the world and punishing anything that is not 'approved'. Or maybe not!

And as always Red and white is pretty much 'right on' in what was written.

Zeke

sukoma · Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 16 Location: Longmont, CO

Good advice all around. I sort of live out in the sticks (Samara region) and I've found that on an individual (or small group) level that people are very nice and friendly. In large groups (such as on the bus or in public places), the people can seem rude and shove their way around. While this gets on my nerves, it's best to just let it go. You'll drive yourself crazy letting it bother you.

The language barrier has been my biggest difficulty here. Outside of my classrooms, I rarely find very few people who speak any more than elementary level English. Even the staff at my school don't speak much English. This also means that they assume that because I don't speak a lot of Russian, I'm some kind of idiot...which is fine with me. This also means they don't expect a lot from me, so I have the freedom to run my classes the way I see fit. Being kind of happy-go-lucky has helped a lot outside of work as well. I'm very well liked in all of the shops and cafes in my neighborhood because I just maintain being very nice...it is infectious even among Russians. If you find someone that doesn't like it, don't let it bother you (and don't let it show).

Russians are kind of like spoiled children who don't know how to play with others (foreigners). They are highly xenophobic and foreigners (especially Americans) have little or no credibility here...they know everything. This is why foreign investment is leaving here...which doesn't help their flailing economy at all.

You have to be thick skinned to survive here...going with the flow also helps a lot. It's 100% correct that this place isn't for everyone, but if you have a good sense of humor, this place can be a lot of fun. At the same time, if you've had your fill, it's time to move on because things won't get any better for you at this point.

mdk · Joined: 09 Jun 2007 Posts: 425

What a load of ignorant twaddle by people who probably should have never left west overshoe in the first place.

I've lived and taught off and on among Russians for about 48 months all told since 2002. I have always found them pleasant and upstanding with the usual bad apples you might find anywhere.

Compared to the people you would meet traveling on a UK train any Friday evening or in your local Target department store they are -hands down - the clear winners.

You people have missed a fine opportunity to make some good friends and you are the poorer for it. I plan to go back just as soon as I can.

jpvanderwerf2001 · Joined: 02 Oct 2003 Posts: 1117 Location: New York

Wouldn't you agree that it's just possible that other people have had different--possibly worse, experiences in Russia, mdk? I mean, I've been around here a while, and I've met people with wildly different stories to tell--some great, some appalling.
It's commendable that you find it wonderful to live in Russia, but I think it's a bit harsh to label someone who doesn't share your views as a twaddler. But of course that is my opinion.
Best of luck to all.

zeke0606 · Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject:

jpvanderwerf etal --

I wouldn't worry to much about mdk says. There are a few posters here at Dave's that are the life members of the 'Spoilers Club' and look to find fault with the thread that they attack. There is no real way to reason with these club members, all they want is to disrupt and cause divisions. Besides, what can you expect from an expat Brit..............

mdk wrote, "...Compared to the people you would meet traveling on a UK train any Friday evening or in your local Target department store they are -hands down - the clear winners." --- I'd really like to know who that last 'they' refers to -------- The shoppers, the train riders or the Russians...........

sukoma, I was in your region in 1999 and like you, I found the same thing in Togliatti. Great fun!

I am somewhat farther east now - in the Ural Mountains. And the government here - president, prime minister, and duma in this autonomous republic almost thumb their noses at Moscow. So we really are autonomous!

Zeke

mdk · Joined: 09 Jun 2007 Posts: 425

Oh I quite agree that people can get a very different experience in Russia than I have. I have seen it often with my own eyes time and again.

But is that because of the supposed defects in the character of the Russians? I think not. It is their country and if people don't appreciate and understand their culture whose fault is that?

I can see that the people who are complaining in this thread apparently lack the temperament and education to fit in to the culture easily. I wonder how many have even a basic command of the language?

I'm not saying that is a bad thing. There are many decent people here in California who would never be able to fit in to Russian society comfortably That doesn't make them bad people. However if they go there and then turn around and run the Russians down out of their own ignorance and inability to appreciate the culture.....what does shakespeare say in "as you like it" about Jacques who travels about to make himself miserable. QED

Now all of you people who are set to tell me how wrong I am. before you do that - go off to Vladimir to the main cathedral and listen to the liturgical chants before you come back and tell me how brutish and deceitful the Russians all are.

I may have my faults, but I know how to get along with Russians. It starts with an open mind and a great love of Solyanka.

sukoma · Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 16 Location: Longmont, CO

MDK...it's just not a real post here if you don't chime in. Your comments have been helpful in the past and I take no offense that you find my words to be twaddle. I'm sorry, but I've only been in Russia 4 months and have not mastered the complexities of the Russian language, but I'm doing my best and slowly improving.

In reality, I'm very happy and well received here by the locals. Go into any store, cafe or pub in my neighborhood and you'll find people who like me, so I'm doing something right apparently. I'm willing to sit down with people with a dictionary or even pen and paper to draw pictures to communicate and it's appreciated that I at least put forth the effort.

This hasn't been the easiest of places to come, but I also know that I was bored out of my mind working in a cubicle back in the US...a pointless job making someone else rich at the expense of my soul. Everyday here is an adventure and I wouldn't trade this for the world. Living in Tol'yatti, I also don't exactly encounter many expats, so I'm a little more isolated than if I was in Moscow (a place I chose not to go). That being said, I'm not having a bad experience here at all.

My point was that this place isn't for everyone, but this place is great in ways that I can't properly explain to my friends and family back home either. If someone is having that bad of an experience here, it's probably time to move on...there are other places to teach. That's the beauty of our career.

Zeke...I love Tol'yatti...this was a great choice. I feel like I'm in the real Russia out here more than I ever did in Moscow. Good luck in the Urals...I hope to get out that way eventually!

bharrell · Joined: 25 Oct 2008 Posts: 102

I don't mind that some people love it here. I have made some good friends, and my generalization is naturally not going to apply in all cases.
However, societies do have personalities, and I just don't like the Russian personality. I don't like the NYC personality either. I'm not that religious, but Russian society behaves like an atheist society. Humans and animals have no value. Just look at how the downtrodden are treated, not to mention the way animals are treated here. Anyplace I have ever been before, people believed that there would be consequences for bad actions, either from God, Karma or the culture. Not so here. If there is such a thing as Satan, he has Russia by the gonads. You can have this place.

mdk · Joined: 09 Jun 2007 Posts: 425

How unfortunate. Every Russian above the age of one day I know would suss out your attitude in seconds. It is no surprise to me that you don't see their good side..

But that's OK. I just don't want a casual reader to misapprehend your post as an unbiased account.

If you approach the Russians with a bad attitude they can be as contrary as any French person.