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siologen
Joined: 25 Oct 2016
Posts: 336
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 Posted: Fri May 12, 2017 7:42 pm Post subject: re: exactly! |
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EDITED OUT.
Last edited by siologen on Sat May 13, 2017 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| siologen wrote: |
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| Some of my Saudi colleagues had TESOL-related MAs and/or doctorates from US and British universities. Several were native/near-native English speakers having spent so many years in the US as children. |
The thing is though as of right now, whether one likes it or lumps it, native english speakers are still advertised for, and they do get paid more than the non native speaker. I have seen this happen in Oman, even in the case of an Indian who was significantly more qualified than I was! |
Frankly, I never focused on what others -- native and non-native speakers -- got paid. It was none of my business and something I had no control over anyway.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Oman. Plus, this isn't about your salary vs what your Indian coworker was paid. I was referring to Saudis who have TESOL-related degrees and native/near-native English language proficiency. Case in point, the Saudi I co-taught with has an MA TESOL from a US public university and also did her teaching practicum in the States. We easily bounced ideas off each other for the class we shared; I viewed her as my equal. Ditto for the Saudi classmate in my educational tech degree program. He had no problem completing the assignments, joining discussions, compiling his portfolio, etc. The point is, English fluency and nationality aren't the only criteria items in terms of qualifications.
As for ads targeting EFL teachers from Anglophone countries, be aware that Saudis aren't part of that recruitment scheme. They're recruited directly by universities and schools and not hired as foreign contractors. (Since when does a Saudi need a visa, flights, etc., to work in his/her own country?)
| and siologen wrote: |
| But as you rightly state, as the belt tightens, jobs will go to nationals first. |
That's not what I meant. Saudization isn't tied to how prosperous the country is. It's mainly about the economics of capacity building, human development, and sustainability. The goal is to boost Saudi employment by replacing foreigners with qualified nationals across all sectors. That's not limited to reducing the number of western, English-speaking guest workers; Egyptians, Sudanese, Jordanians, and expats from other MENA countries are included in that mix as well. Ditto for nationals from India, Pakistan... |
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ex500
Joined: 27 Nov 2010
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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The question for me is are there MALE Saudis with suitable qualifications willing to teach prep year and vocational college English?
Are these above Saudis sitting around unemployed?
I have yet to come across one male Saudi ESL teacher in the 4 places I've worked since 2014.
BTW, the difference between native and non-native is that the native is usually from a well developed western country and has mentality different than someone from Egypt or Pakistan. There is no Harvard in Egypt or Pakistan. The idea is a native is raised in a different culture with regards to education and will bring a western mindset to education in the country. So instead of sending their kids to good colleges in the US or UK, they bring the teachers here... That's the idea it doesn't necessarily work in practice. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| ex500 wrote: |
The question for me is are there MALE Saudis with suitable qualifications willing to teach prep year and vocational college English?
Are these above Saudis sitting around unemployed?
I have yet to come across one male Saudi ESL teacher in the 4 places I've worked since 2014. |
They exist. I've met male Saudis with TESOL-related MAs/doctorates from western universities while at TESOL Arabia. I still correspond with one via Linkedin.
| and ex500 wrote: |
| The idea is a native is raised in a different culture with regards to education and will bring a western mindset to education in the country. So instead of sending their kids to good colleges in the US or UK, they bring the teachers here... That's the idea it doesn't necessarily work in practice. |
And yet, those Saudis who completed their degrees in the west have been directly exposed to a "western mindset" to education as well.
FYI, Saudi Arabia have been sending more students to the west (predominantly to the US) compared to other countries in the GCC. See Middle Eastern Students Abroad: In Numbers and Rapid rise of Saudi students in America. In fact, Aramco was likely to have sent the first Saudi scholarship students to the US in the late 1950s.
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sicklyman
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| bigdurian wrote: |
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| locals... always make more than even Western expat native speakers. |
Not true where I work. |
not true where I work either... at a very large energy company...  |
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siologen
Joined: 25 Oct 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:05 am Post subject: re: very well said... |
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| Quote: |
| The idea is a native is raised in a different culture with regards to education and will bring a western mindset to education in the country. So instead of sending their kids to good colleges in the US or UK, they bring the teachers here... That's the idea it doesn't necessarily work in practice. |
Give this person a cee-gar. That sums up what I wanted to type in response to NS. It is about knowing the nuances of the language, in a way that someone who studied english overseas may not. |
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voyagerksa
Joined: 29 Apr 2015
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| The Saudi's pork barrel oil economy is at an end. Of course they're going to cut expat teachers. Really native English teachers don't do the Saudis any good anyway. Regardless of the myriad of reasons for that, it's in the best interests of the Saudis to cut expat teaching, except teaching that comes from other Arabs. Cheaper than NETs and they understand each other. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| sicklyman wrote: |
| bigdurian wrote: |
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| locals... always make more than even Western expat native speakers. |
Not true where I work. |
not true where I work either... at a very large energy company... |
My experience around the Gulf in universities and from friends in the schools is that the locals will get at the least the top of the salary scale plus "benefits" that expats do not receive. (similar to the fact that local students get paid to attend)
Not that most of us have a clue what the locals might be paid.
VS |
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desertdawg
Joined: 14 Jun 2010
Posts: 206
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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@ VS - don't think you worked in Saudi and finished working a long time ago. Why do you disagree with people with direct, recent experience?
I worked in Saudi a while ago and was paid more and had better benefits than two local teachers working on the same contract. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| "Pork barrel" ? In Saudi Arabia ? |
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bigdurian
Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 401
Location: Flashing my lights right behind you!
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| sicklyman wrote: |
| bigdurian wrote: |
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| locals... always make more than even Western expat native speakers. |
Not true where I work. |
not true where I work either... at a very large energy company... |
My experience around the Gulf in universities and from friends in the schools is that the locals will get at the least the top of the salary scale plus "benefits" that expats do not receive. (similar to the fact that local students get paid to attend)
Not that most of us have a clue what the locals might be paid.
VS |
But your experience is limited to outside Saudi, and universities and schools. Neither Sicklyman(O+G), or myself(military), work in that environment.
Plenty of jobs outside PYP university programs(for men anyway), and generally speaking they pay far more, and have much better benefits.
To give an example of the differences:
1. Western expats could earn around 7-15k SAR more per month than a Saudi.
2. Western expats get housing provided, Saudis don't.
3. Western expats get cars provided, very few Saudis do.
4. Western expats get a fuel allowance, very few Saudis do.
5. Everyone gets a signing on bonus and yearly bonus.
6. Western expats get a flight allowance, Saudis don't.
As for your last point, the only reason I know some of the salaries, is that the people in question have told me. Now it's possible they were lying, but why would they? |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Well you can different kinds of locals. Most Saudis are 220v. Some are 110. Quite a lot are high voltage - three phase. An outsider sees a thobe and thinks that these guys are all the same. In fact they are incredible diverse.
You may live to be surprised at what can get done in KSA. I remember Iran pre-1979. Conventional wisdom was that western "advisors" and "experst" were essential. It turned out differently. Maybe KSA will surprise us all ! |
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psychedelicacy
Joined: 05 Oct 2013
Posts: 180
Location: Beijing
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RustyShackleford
Joined: 13 May 2013
Posts: 449
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2017 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
Well you can different kinds of locals. Most Saudis are 220v. Some are 110. Quite a lot are high voltage - three phase. An outsider sees a thobe and thinks that these guys are all the same. In fact they are incredible diverse.
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You're certainly right about this. It is easy to lose track of that though, especially if one works on a military contract and finds that it's hard to tell which guy is which because they all provide the same headaches. 
While talking about benefits Saudis receive. I had a Saudi friend who worked as a teacher and he was telling me that he did receive housing, at least, from his workplace. Never asked him his salary, but I imagine he was making at least five figures from how he laid it out. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| desertdawg wrote: |
| I worked in Saudi a while ago and was paid more and had better benefits than two local teachers working on the same contract. |
Paid less based on what qualifications? Plus, your Saudi coworkers weren't on the same contract with similar benefits because they're not guest workers on visas.
| siologen wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The idea is a native is raised in a different culture with regards to education and will bring a western mindset to education in the country. So instead of sending their kids to good colleges in the US or UK, they bring the teachers here... That's the idea it doesn't necessarily work in practice. |
Give this person a cee-gar. That sums up what I wanted to type in response to NS. It is about knowing the nuances of the language, in a way that someone who studied english overseas may not. |
So... You contend that 1) Saudis who complete a TESOL-related MA and/or doctorate in the US, for example, acquire academic English for their studies but never learn the nuances of the English language; and 2) the only qualification needed to teach EFL is native English fluency. Seriously? Saudi Arabia isn't China.
This has nothing to do with foreigners getting paid more than Saudis and vice versa. The concept of Saudization has been around for a few decades. The government's initiative isn't about native vs non-native language skills; the goal is to replace guest workers with qualified nationals in order to reduce the unemployment rate and move the country toward sustainability. (Similarly, we don't compete with foreigners for jobs in our home countries.)
| scot47 wrote: |
| Most Saudis are 220v. Some are 110. Quite a lot are high voltage - three phase. An outsider sees a thobe and thinks that these guys are all the same. In fact they are incredible diverse. |
Amen! There's too much stereotyping and ethnocentric thinking. The Saudis are not a monolithic group.
Although I didn't have your long tenure in KSA, I lived among Saudi women who were my neighbors in addition to the all-female staff that maintained our community. I got to know quite a few Saudi women who spoke perfect English; their mothers are American, Canadian, British... as a result of their Saudi dads studying in the west a couple of decades ago. One of my Saudi friends spent 13 years in the US as a child due to her dad's university studies and business trips. She sounds like she came straight out of Jersey. Others had never travelled to the west but had acquired their polished English skills while attending IB schools as children. 
As for the 2020 Saudization goal, they will get there when they get there.
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