Job Discussion Forums

[Snoopy]

Has nobody heard of an object pronoun used after a preposition?

[fat_chris]

I'm going to have to agree with scot47 on this one, although I won't do so on such biting terms.

The mysteries of subject-object and then subject of another clause are not difficult to unlock. I would say as well, find a more detailed grammar book or a decent website and figure it out independently.

I do like the avatar though, marco. Keep keepin' on.

[Glenski]

[scot47]

Amazing how easy it is to rattle the cage of some of these characters on this site !

Wow ! Marcoregano, cool it !

I still say this is not the place for Basic Grammar. Just as I would expect a practising bus driver to know about changing gears on his bus, so I expect EFL teachers to have some idea of simple grammatical concepts. But then I am an old0-fashioned fuddy duddy.

[Marcoregano]

Oh pleeeaaase! Of course have some idea of basic grammar. However, I - as well as others, as is apparent from other posts - still find some of it confusing. And some students find it confusing too. And scot47...surely it's not for you to decide whether this is the place for such a discussion or not, though it beats me where would be better than a TEFLer discussion forum. There are plenty of discussions on the go that I don't find interesting or informative....I ignore them. Thanks Glenski for your post, and I'll have a look at that website.

[Stephen Jones]

To answer your question, the direct object of suggested is the noun clause "that we vote for her"; "we" is the subject of the subordinate noun clause, which is the direct object of 'suggested.'

Your guess that 'her' is an indirect object is way off the mark. The sentence is actually not that easy to parse, but substitute 'told' for reminded and it becomes clearer.

He told me to vote for her
He told me the answer

'me' is the indirect object of 'told' and the direct object is the noun phrase 'to vote for her'. I believe you can parse your example the same way, though direct and indirect objects aren't very enlightening concepts here.

I woudn't be bothered about teachng English even though you don't have the least idea about grammar. A few years back I got a lift in Riyadh off a taxi driver. He couldn't speak either Engish or Arabic - only Afghani - and he only knew two locations in the whole city: "Riyadh" and "airport" (he wasn't that hot at driving, either). Still his employer didn't seem to mind, and he's probably still got the job, so if he can do it, why not you?

[leeroy]

[Marcoregano]

Stephen Jones wrote:

He told me to vote for her
He told me the answer

'me' is the indirect object of 'told' and the direct object is the noun phrase 'to vote for her'.

Mr Jones, you are wrong. "Me" is the direct object in both your examples. Don't worry, you can go back to cab driving in Riyadh....

[arioch36]

I slightly agree with the old guru Scot 47. I think that overall most of the ESL teachers I have known (including me at times) tend to be a bit lazy and unprepared. We should refer to a book more often, or learn to use the many resources that are available on line.

However, just like people here will disagree over how to "explain" why something is "right", or even what is right (is "me" IDO or DO ? Will knowing this help the student or teacher?)so to will the books disagree, or will have muddy answers. I am interested in the answer to shmooj's question...what is the application of this in class?

Personally, in all seriousness, I have found for oral english that the fewer rules mentioned, the better the results. Actually I feel the same is true for writing. The largest problem to me is that because the students don't first speak the language, they have problems when "parsing" or constructing the sentences, because they are trying to think on the micro level, trying to think of every little rule.

We did not learn to speak by studying grammar. You learned to speak, read and write before you learned grammar. You learned to say it, and then learned the rule.

However, there are also times when knowing the rules, explaining the rules helps the teacher or student. If learning a grammar rule helps in learning english, then cool, use it
So what was the learning purpose of the original question???

[scot47]

Leeroy asks me to divulge some hard knowledge rather than cranky opinions from a grumpy and embittered old vet of EFL.
Right :
#1 For Stephen - there is no language called Afghani. Main languages they speak there are Farsi and Pushtu.
#2 Taxis in Saudi are dangerous but not nearly as dangerous as driving yourself.

[Stephen Jones]

He told me a story
He told a story to me
Me is clearly the indirect object in both cases.

He gave me the answer
He gave the answer to me
Again me is the indirect object.

You seem to be totally confused about this. Funnily enough I can't offhand think of a source that makes it clear. Scot 47 and I were taught this at school at a tender age, but I doubt if anybody in the UK under 45 had to suffer clause analysis.

[guest of Japan]

Once again, I agree with Mr. Jones.

[Marcoregano]

Stephen, according to my grammar book the confusion is yours. SOME reporting verbs (eg. tell, advise, remind), the "hearer" is ALWAYS the direct object. Thus:

He told me a story - Here, "me" is the direct object.


He told a story to me - This is bad English....Told should be followed by a personal pronoun or a noun.

He gave me the answer
He gave the answer to me
Me is the indirect object.... CORRECT..."Give" is not a reporting verb.

[leeroy]

"He told me", "He killed me" or "He helped me". Isn't "me" the direct object in all of these cases?

[Snoopy]

What a load of hoohah. In French grammar, there is a distinction of direct, indirect and disjunctive (not connected with a verb) pronouns. In English we simply use the same set of pronouns, although we still hear such abominations as "between you and I".