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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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 Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
| Doubt it. I understand the MATESOLs out there are very sensitive about the topic and find online courses insulting, but karaoke singing or listening to music for leisure absolutely nothing to do with music theory and music education. |
See, you're a bit wrong there. MANY of the MA TESOL programs out there are online degrees. You can't paint the field, or even all MA TESOL holders, with the same, broad brush. This whole discussion isn't about 'all online training is bad' or anything like that. Online MA TESOL degrees from reputable universities are accepted many places in the world because the employer knows of the university and the content of the program of study. Of course, they aren't accepted everywhere -- like I and others have said repeatedly, qualification requirements and expectations vary substantially around the world.
Online-only TEFL certificated tend to be of low quality, and because they are so short term, students completing them often end up without a solid knowledge of language teaching methodology and do not have a chance to practice the methods.
You can keep arguing with us, who have decades of professional experience in this field, if you would like. We're trying to help you here by telling you what our field is like. As I said earlier, we aren't saying that your previous experiences and training have no value whatsoever for ESL teaching -- we're telling you what employers expect, and we're telling you that having appropriate training in ESL teaching is necessary for being a skilled, professional ESL teacher. Your arguing isn't going to change what employers want, and it's not going to change the fact that properly learning about and practicing ESL teaching will be beneficial.
As has been said on here numerous times, there are places in the world where you will be fine with the qualifications you have. Heck, for some places you could just photoshop yourself a degree and you'd be set, and in other places, they don't even care if you have a degree at all. Such places also tend to pay very low wages and sometimes can be dangerous. On the other hand, jobs in more desirable locations and those that pay more are more competitive, and, thus, can require in-person certificates and graduate degrees in TESOL. |
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Monchi
Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| rtm wrote: |
You can keep arguing with us, who have decades of professional experience in this field, if you would like. Like I said earlier, we aren't saying that your previous experiences and training have no value for ESL teaching -- we're telling you what employers expect, and we're telling you that having appropriate training in ESL teaching is useful for being a skilled, professional ESL teacher. Your arguing isn't going to change what employers want, and it's not going to change the fact that properly learning about and practicing ESL teaching will be beneficial. |
Thanks for your input and clarification, rtm. I'm actually not "arguing" with the actual information presented here (I'm very grateful for that). What I am offended by is the insulting and elitist tone I'm getting (not from you) when I'm simply asking a few questions, and questioning the rationale when it is "content area" that we are dealing with here. I'm sorry to anyone here if by questioning "the rules" I offended, but that's the way I learn - by asking questions. As I have said before, I absolutely do not believe that things should operate as the U.S. If I honestly thought that, do you think I would be interested in living and working abroad and would spend this much time inquiring about such possibilities? Btw, my parents are from the Ukraine, so I fully understand what it means to be an English learner and feel that I have a pretty multi-cultural perspective (but thanks, suphanburi, for insulting me again on that note and assuming that I believe everything should operate by U.S. standards).
I don't have the capability or money to acquire another Master's degree and I'm perfectly fine with teaching ESL in Korea or China. I'm not sure how this thread became so antagonistic when I simply wanted to know some basics (as someone new to the field) and where I could go with my Education degrees and a lack-luster TESOL certificate. I think I have my answer. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| It very much depends on what we mean by 'teaching'. Teaching methodology for EFL is significantly different to teaching in contexts where the teacher and learner share the same language. An education degree which doesn't include teaching practice with real EFL learners followed by trainer feedback will not preclude the need for a Celta or equivalent. |
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Scott at UW
Joined: 03 Apr 2014
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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There are online courses that are accredited.
Check TESL Canada's website to find online courses. You will still have to do a practicum but you can arrange to do it in your home state/country/province.
https://tesl.ca/training/tesl-canada-recognized-teacher-training-programs/recognized-teacher-training-directory/?prov=0&type=1
You should check to see if the country you are applying to accepts online certs. Though there is usually no indication on the transcript or certificate as whether the certificate was online or not.
| Quote: |
| See, that's where you lose me. ESL teaching isn't just the content. Language teaching has its own very specific teaching methodologies (e.g., communicative language teaching, audiolingual method, total physical response, task-based language teaching, content-based instruction / content and language-integrated learning, Focus on Form, grammar-translation method, and many, many, many more). I'm not saying that other disciplines don't have a number of methodologies, as I'm sure they do (though I have no experience in any disciplines other than language education), but I am saying that a skilled, trained ESL teacher needs to be aware of a number of methodologies, and have practice implementing them, preferably under the guidance, supervision, and evaluation of a skilled, knowledgeable teacher. |
I have to disagree with the idea that ESL/EFL teaching is so different from other types of teaching. Most of the student-teachers I have trained from education backgrounds easily pick up on ESL methodologies. Some are taken from mainstream education...TBL and Community of Learners. Others are easily adaptable. TPR is easily recognized by anyone who teachers young learners or any practical class.
The classroom management techniques are the same in both streams.
And people with B'Eds receive weeks of practicum training as opposed to the hours of practicum training the ESL teachers get in cert level courses.
| Quote: |
Do you have a broad base of knowledge in TEFL?
You have a firm grasp of Phonetics and Phonology, and their application in an EFL context? Do you know the difference (theoretical and practical applications thereof ) between phonetics and phonics?
You somehow have the innate ability (without the pedagogical background) to convey an understanding of pragmatics and speech acts to your students?
You understand the differences between language acquisition and language learning?
You are comfortable with CALL and TELL?
CBT/CBL and CLIL are second nature to you?
The concept of multiple Englishes works for you?
How are you with providing grammar instruction for academic writing. |
I am not going to go through all of these points.
But, every reading teacher I know knows the difference between phonics and phonetics as they components of two different approaches to teaching reading
Why you think mainstream teachers would not be able to use technology in their classrooms.
I think someone who teaches music would have clear idea of multiple Englishes as there would seem to be a direct correlation to music styles changing as they move to country to country.
And of all the things you could talk about teaching academic writing you choose grammar. I have never found a real big difference in teaching academic writing in ESL/EFL or mainstream classes.
In the end, the advice is true. Most people will not accept your credentials as to be equivalent to MTESL and the such. I have also been on hiring committees and the one thing I have found to be true is that good teachers are good teachers. It isn't that hard for a good mainstream teacher to come to grips with the changes necessary to be an effective ESL teacher. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting contrasting views there. Can only say that in my own experience I have found that the majority of teachers who were trained in other areas found it quite hard to take on board EFL methodology. In fact, many were quite resistant to many basic concepts - such as student-centredness. It did seem to relate to the age and length of previous experience, however. The trainees with more experience and who were older being the hardest to convince that teacher-fronted classes were not going to lead to a pass grade. |
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Scott at UW
Joined: 03 Apr 2014
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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That is interesting.
I was learning about student centered classrooms during my B'Ed in the 90's. I wouldn't think it is a new concept for teachers in L1 or L2 classrooms. TBL was all the rage then, too.
During my M'Ed it switched to learner-centered (that was in 2004). |
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suphanburi
Joined: 20 Mar 2014
Posts: 916
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott at UW wrote: |
That is interesting.
I was learning about student centered classrooms during my B'Ed in the 90's. I wouldn't think it is a new concept for teachers in L1 or L2 classrooms. TBL was all the rage then, too.
During my M'Ed it switched to learner-centered (that was in 2004). |
Difference being that you were trained in Canada. ESL/FSL, immersion and bilingual schools with CLIL, CBT and CLT have been running since the early 60's with a body of research to match.
Back then, the US, UK et al were still working on audio lingual and TPR methodologies. CLIL as a term wasn't even coined till the 90's in Europe.
Do not assume that everywhere is like Canada or that TESL.CA has meaning or influence outside of the great white north. That is the same type of ethnocentrism that the OP was showing assuming that simply because he was a teacher and was a native speaker that he would be able to simply transplant himself abroad as a "premium" product rather than an entry level EFL teacher.
He is no better equipped to teach EFL than we are to teach music and for the same reasons.
Can he quickly pick it up = probably yes.
Is he ready today = no, other than as an entry level EFL teacher (just like I would, at best, be an entry level music teacher).
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Monchi
Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott at UW wrote: |
You should check to see if the country you are applying to accepts online certs. Though there is usually no indication on the transcript or certificate as whether the certificate was online or not.
I have to disagree with the idea that ESL/EFL teaching is so different from other types of teaching. Most of the student-teachers I have trained from education backgrounds easily pick up on ESL methodologies. Some are taken from mainstream education...TBL and Community of Learners. Others are easily adaptable. TPR is easily recognized by anyone who teachers young learners or any practical class.
The classroom management techniques are the same in both streams.
And people with B'Eds receive weeks of practicum training as opposed to the hours of practicum training the ESL teachers get in cert level courses....
But, every reading teacher I know knows the difference between phonics and phonetics as they components of two different approaches to teaching reading
Why you think mainstream teachers would not be able to use technology in their classrooms.
I think someone who teaches music would have clear idea of multiple Englishes as there would seem to be a direct correlation to music styles changing as they move to country to country.
And of all the things you could talk about teaching academic writing you choose grammar. I have never found a real big difference in teaching academic writing in ESL/EFL or mainstream classes.
In the end, the advice is true. Most people will not accept your credentials as to be equivalent to MTESL and the such. I have also been on hiring committees and the one thing I have found to be true is that good teachers are good teachers. It isn't that hard for a good mainstream teacher to come to grips with the changes necessary to be an effective ESL teacher. |
Thank you for your perspectives, Scott, with B'Eds who go on to teach EFL. I do value all of the input that has been offered here in this thread, but I have to agree with Scott...I have picked up ESL very easily and have been teaching it for 5 years (without formal training) at literacy centers (classroom and individual settings) and online. My students keep coming back to me, I'm the most requested tutor, and the main point...they are learning English. Just pointing out what I have found. That being said....am I as qualified as someone who has an MA in TESOL? No, absolutely not. I'm not arguing with that. But, with a B'Ed, I have picked it up rather quickly (probably due to my previous teaching experience). And yes, I agree with Scott, the number of hours in practicum teaching with a B'ED far exceeds the number of hours in practicum teaching for a TESOL certificate. My practicum teaching involved 1 semester (10 weeks) of full-time practicum teaching (7-8 hours a day, M-F), plus pre-practicum teaching which involved 5 weeks of teaching, 5 hours per week.
| suphanburi wrote: |
Can he quickly pick it up = probably yes.
Is he ready today = no, other than as an entry level EFL teacher (just like I would, at best, be an entry level music teacher).
. |
Not a fair comparison, Suphanburi, as I said before. No, actually, you would not be considered for ANY music teaching position K-12 (not a single one) because you do not have a B'Ed in Music Education. I, on the other hand, would be considered for entry level. Nice try, though, with that comparison.
Like I said before, I am fine with entry level position. This post was intended to be on the topic of WHERE I could go with my education, not about comparing who is more qualified in various teaching outlets. Also, just because someone is offering some insight from their experience in one country, does not make them ethnocentric. Those were pretty harsh choice of words.
Again, thank you everyone for your input here.
Last edited by Monchi on Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:54 am; edited 4 times in total |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| zugora wrote: |
| Thank you for your perspectives, Scott, with B'Eds who go on to teach EFL. I do value all of the input that has been offered here in this thread, but I have to agree with Scott...I have picked up ESL very easily and have been teaching it for 5 years (without formal training) at literacy centers (classroom and individual settings) and online. My students keep coming back to me, I'm the most requested tutor, and the main point...they are learning English. Just pointing out what I have found. |
At the end of the day, though, is the point that there is still lots to learn about ESL teaching, even for someone who already has a B.Ed. in another field. Scott mentioned that the B.Ed. students in his (presumably ESL) teacher training courses have picked up ESL teaching methodology quickly, and I would echo that with my own experiences. That said, I think it's still important for those with a B.Ed. to take courses specifically about ESL teaching before becoming an ESL teacher. And, not just any course -- I'm sure the teacher training courses Scott teaches are of high quality, at a reputable institution, with both practical and theoretical elements. Many (but not all, of course) online TEFL certificate programs are of lower quality. Many such courses substitute language pedagogy with instruction on strategies for finding a job.
So, the basic point that has been made here is:
1) Your previous training in education will provide you with a good general pedagogical framework. However, even though you have a B.Ed./M.Ed., you should still do some form of ESL teacher training (and your previous experiences will likely help you to learn it more quickly).
2) You should vet potential online courses carefully, as some will mislead you (such as the one you posted about that said they are "accredited").
3) Even with your credentials, in some countries and with some employers, online certificates are not acceptable. Likewise, some employers will not accept certificates that did not include a practical teaching component. Therefore, you should consider where you want to teach when you choose the course you will take. |
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Monchi
Joined: 27 Oct 2013
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:51 am Post subject: |
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[quote="rtm"]
| zugora wrote: |
At the end of the day, though, is the point that there is still lots to learn about ESL teaching, even for someone who already has a B.Ed. in another field. Scott mentioned that the B.Ed. students in his (presumably ESL) teacher training courses have picked up ESL teaching methodology quickly, and I would echo that with my own experiences. That said, I think it's still important for those with a B.Ed. to take courses specifically about ESL teaching before becoming an ESL teacher. And, not just any course -- I'm sure the teacher training courses Scott teaches are of high quality, at a reputable institution, with both practical and theoretical elements. Many (but not all, of course) online TEFL certificate programs are of lower quality. Many such courses substitute language pedagogy with instruction on strategies for finding a job.
So, the basic point that has been made here is:
1) Your previous training in education will provide you with a good general pedagogical framework. However, even though you have a B.Ed./M.Ed., you should still do some form of ESL teacher training (and your previous experiences will likely help you to learn it more quickly).
2) You should vet potential online courses carefully, as some will mislead you (such as the one you posted about that said they are "accredited").
3) Even with your credentials, in some countries and with some employers, online certificates are not acceptable. Likewise, some employers will not accept certificates that did not include a practical teaching component. Therefore, you should consider where you want to teach when you choose the course you will take. |
Thank you, RTM, for summarizing the important take-home points here which are extremely useful for me as a newbie. I very much appreciate the straight-forward, yet thorough, response to my question. It helps tremendously. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott at UW wrote: |
That is interesting.
I was learning about student centered classrooms during my B'Ed in the 90's. I wouldn't think it is a new concept for teachers in L1 or L2 classrooms. TBL was all the rage then, too.
During my M'Ed it switched to learner-centered (that was in 2004). |
Could be about timescale then. I was training EFL newbies who had been high school teachers since the 70s and 80s. Yes, they had far longer careers than I had, but even so, they were near hopeless in our context. Definitely not an experience I would care to repeat : ) Apparently I was the one who was lacking a proper pedagogical foundation for saying that lecturing for 45 mins non-stop at speed and demanding the low-level learners take notes wasn't going to cut it... |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Bell bottoms and Suggestopedia! |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| They weren't open to too much suggestion... |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| I haven't read all of he responses but with your experience why not look at international schools? International Schools Review has good info. |
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VietCanada
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
Posts: 590
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| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Monchi wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
To be competitive for many of the better jobs worldwide, a CELTA, SIT TESOL, or Trinity CertTESOL is the best route to go because these qualifications meet the minimum standard of a 120-hour course.
However, in your case, since you're looking at online teacher training courses, you'll need to check out actual job ads in the countries you want to teach in to see what level of TEFL cert employers are expecting as well as each country's visa regulations. Some will accept an online TEFL qualification, while others don't care if you have a cert or not. You'll be limited as to where you can teach with an online cert. As for cheap online TEFL courses, pick one that fits your budget. Just be mindful that you get what you pay for. |
Thanks, Nomad Soul:
I have the following education requirements and teaching experience. I'm wondering how I would fair with a Bachelor's in Education and a Master's in Higher Education Administration). ??
BFA - Music Education and Music (completed entire Dept. of Education requirements along with Music Education requirements)
MA - Higher Education Administration
TESOL (anticipated 2015)
Music Teacher: K-8 public school for 2 years. 9-12 practicum teaching for 1 semester.
ESL Teacher/Tutor - Taught in-person classes and online ESL lessons (5 years). |
You should be looking at international schools. You are way over qualified for an EFL position especially one that only requires any old BA/BSc and/or a TEFL cert..
International schools like CIS (Canadian International School) in Vietnam often have a principle from the country that they are associated with. CIS has connections with Ontario. They will have no problem whatsoever understanding your qualifications unlike the much , much lower qualified CELTA and DELTA grads who often respond to queries like yours on this board. Think McDonalds kitchen staff vs sous chef. Then re-read the responses to your enquiry.
Quite simply you're asking on the wrong board. As another poster stated look for a board that caters to international schools or Linkedin or even the board for Ontario teachers if you are registered there. Many teachers go abroad for a year or two.
Maybe there are other international schools that are associated with Ontario or Canada and you can explore that option with teachers who have worked at those schools? Hope this helps. |
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