Job Discussion Forums

[Mark]

[Mark]

[Chris21]

As was said, the reason why they score so poorly on these tests, is because everyone takes them. If as many people took them in Taiwan and S. Korea as they do in Japan, then they'd score lower too. From the data that I've seen, Taiwan and S. Korea only score about 10-20 points higher on the TOEFL (on average).

More Japanese go abroad too, which would explain why there are more of them in lower levels. Of course there are problems in the Japanese system, but I'd bet there are problems in every system. A quick visit to other forums shows that expat teachers in other countries have complaints about how education is conducted. I think it's unfair to say that the Japanese are the worst at learning English because students at a Technical College and bored housewives are dragging the national average down.

[Mark]

[Chris21]

The score difference between Japan and S. Korea on standardized tests is getting bigger, Korea will blow the Japanese out of the water in 10 years, Japanese are scarce in upper level English courses abroad...

I guess we just have a fundamental disgreement on these points. I do think Japan has some serious flaws in their English education policy, but I also realize that every situation is complex, making it difficult to compare how language is taught in Japan versus Korea, Hong Kong, Chile, and Sweden. Japan does invest more into English than many of these places, and the system is flawed, but it also faces different challenges (for example, student motivation to learn English, ethnolinguistic vitality, whether it's an EFL/ESL context, colonial history, language families, etc). I think it's important to consider these things before condemning a country, as well as to realize that change (especially in Japan) occurs incrementally. Despite the horror stories, I think the JET program, as well as gradual reform towards more communicative testing (like the new speaking component of the TOEIC), are very positive things.

And, disagreeing with you on an internet discussion board, where it is difficult to articulate a nuanced argument, is no reason to assume that I don't have an ESL/EFL background or education.

[Mark]

[Chris21]

I agree that Japan is investing a lot of time and effort for what appears to be mediocre results. I think that one of the major problem is that the government has made English mandatory for everyone in all schools. The result being that the poor students go through 6 years of schooling and don't learn anything, while the good students are held back because classes have to be kept at an appropriate level for the poor students. Then everyone has to take TOEFL and other standardized tests, and it's not surprising that scores are lower than neighboring Asian countries. Statistics are often held up by everyone from administrators to newly-arrived eikaiwa teachers to decry the educational system. Yet, stats can be extremely misleading. Many critics of the system don't realize that sample size and other factors can have a HUGE impact upon how those statistics should be interpreted.

It seems that when newbies (not you) come to Japan, many offer blanket criticisms, like the whole system is "shite" and completely unsuccessful... it's become a cliche. Many of the critics that label Japan as the worst in Asia, don't consider the issue with much depth. I haven't seen historical statistics, but I would guess that the number of excellent English speakers in Japan has improved over the years, and I think it'll keep improving. The introduction of the JET program into elementary schools, the revision of many university entrance examinations, and greater support for newer teaching philosophies like communicative teaching, cooperative learning, and extensive reading will help.

As a Canadian, I had to study French for as long as many Japanese study English. And even though French is much easier to learn for an English speaker than English would be for a Japanese speaker, I can hardly speak a word. That suggests to me that Japan isn't the only country that has failed in some regards of language teaching (and Canada is often characterized as having one of the best language education policies).

I think we might be arguing the same point though, just from different angles... glass is 90% empty vs. glass is 10% full (although maybe I think the glass is a little fuller than 10%).

[Mark]

I'm Canadian too, so I understand where you're coming from. It depends on which province you went to, too. When I finished studying French in high school, I was somewhat decent at it. I could have a conversation and participate in simple debates and stuff. I wasn't interested and I didn't study very hard, but we were required to become minimally communicative. Kids that were really interested in French were better at it than I was.

Then again, I finished grade 11 French about 12 years ago, and the system wasn't as good as it is now. Classes were mainly taught in English and there was a lot of grammar explanation and whatnot. The system was a lot less centralized than Japan, so a lot would have depended on the teacher you got.

But, in Ontario at least, French was an option beyond grade 9. And we're an officially bilingual country!

I think you're right about the 90% empty, 10% full thing.

[24601]

I have never seen effective language learning that did not involve immersion. As in the "teacher" does not speak any of your native language to you.

I took 5 years of french in high school. Came to Quebec thinking I knew lots of french. Yeah. I could count and knew courtesy words. They taught us a birthday song that doesn't exist.

I took a 5 month immersion course and was fine, except for the Romanian accent I picked up from my study mates.

Don't ask me to write, tho.

[Mark]

[shikushiku-boy]

A personal anecdote: I was on a JAL flight from Sydney to Osaka. I asked the flight
attendant (in English): "Do you have any Australian beer?" . I saw that (oh, so familiar)
panicky look on her face. I repeated the question in Japanese. The flight attendant
looked so relieved I thought she was going to give me a round of applause. During
the rest of the flight she spoke to me only in Japanese (which she delivered at native
speaker speed...ingoring the panicky look on my face).

1. I'm pretty sure JAL has pretty tough L2 standards.
2. Unlike the majority of Japanese, the FA was regular contact
with navite English speakers.
3. The FA regularly spends time in English speaking countries.
4. I heard her speaking English to other passengers.
5. It is her job to speak English to English speaking passengers.
6. The FA grabbed the chance not to speak her L2 without hesitation.

I know that anecdotal evidence isn't all that useful. Some people,
not doubt, have had the opposite experience with JAL FAs. Perhaps, the FA
was just haviing a bad day. But, I think, that look I saw on her face spoke volumes.
That FA has, most likely, put a great deal of time and effort into learning
English, but, when push comes to shove, she'd rather speak Japanese (even when it is
her job to speak English, and she is speaking to someone who is clearly not
Japanese).

[Chris21]

Are you suggesting that the FA's apprehension about speaking English is indicative of education in Japan? What were the volumes that her expression was saying?

[Crab]

[Mark]

[nomadder]

The more things you read, the more you find out that the Japanese seem to be "inherently bad" at a lot of things from language learning to sexual satisfaction. From creativity to social skills or demonstrating any sign of feeling. The word I'm thinking is 'deficient'. Hmm?

And yet they are the number 2 economy(no thoughts on what that says about the #1 economy ). Apparently they must score high on the robotics test. It's a sad world.

The JAL story is most disturbing. What if you had said "Where are the oxygen masks?" or "I think I'm having a heart attack." Dumb stare and smile no doubt. Don't think I'll fly that airline.