Job Discussion Forums

[Bule_Gila]

If Indonesia wants to increase their qualifications for expat ESl teachers, they are free to do so, but they should be realistic at the same time. They should compare themselves to their neighbors, as it pertains to packages, lifestyle, availability of core facilities, etc. Indonesia is the only 3rd world country in the area ( Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei), so why should they raise their standards to the level of developed, neighboring countries, if they can't provide the same incentives as their neighbors?

The most they should do now is require all expat teachers to have a min High school diploma, CELTA/Trintiy or Equivalent, and teaching experience. This is what most schools here are asking for now. I remember back in 2004 an person could secure employment with only a high school diploma!

As the situation here improves, so should the requirements rise

[travelNteach]

@ eddie, not sure where u get your figures from or what your business experience is, but i disagree. seems more a an emotional reaction than a logical well thought out arguement. do u really think that 95% of the languages schools are operating on such a small profit margin that a small increase in teacher�s salaries would bankrupt them or force them to hire only local teachers? and why do u assume that all locals are unqualified. I have done many teaching observations over the years, i would say that the locals are much better than these people whose only job skill is being a native speaker.

take any language school. We can use a generalization of ef as an example (I have a specific ef in mind but wont use the name). Although it will vary from school to school, it will prove my point. Class sizes are supposed to be from 8-14 students. To make the math easy, lets use 10 for our example. Typical contracts call for 24 hours of teaching. Each class usually meets for 2 hour/day 2x/week. 1 course typically takes 3 months and 1 week from beginning to completion. Using 8 million as an average salary, we can also factor in 900,000 for bule tax, 1 million/month for visa/insurance and other incidentals, 1 million for flight home, and 700,000 for 13th month salary. Rounding up, 1 teacher is costing approx 11 million/month. Students pay 2million/32 hour course that takes approx 3 months. The teacher has 60 students�. 60x2=120,000,000/3months=40,000,000 month. Of course each situation is different, but in the scenario, the owner is making 29 million/teacher. Most schools have between 5-10 teachers.

Of course there are other expenses:
Most owners own the schools and the teachers� houses........ no overhead (minor repairs maybe), but lots of appreciation should he ever decide to sell. The teachers cover utilities and maids' salaries. The owner is supposed to pay 10% franchise fee, re-invest 10% on marketing, he has school utilities to pay for, admin staff, cleaning staff, car maintenance, drivers, local teachers, books, and the like. However, these are not prohibitive costs because they are spread out over the tuition paid by all of the students enrolled at the school. Even figuring costs on the high end and enrollment at the low end, school owners are still turning a handsome profit. It certainly wouldn�t bankrupt them to increase teachers� salaries a few million per month. He could either deal with a lower profit margin, or raise prices slightly to help offset the teachers� salaries. Other costs such as visa, airfare, insurance and the like are fixed and unaffected by raising teachers� salaries.

If these laws come into effect and are actually enforced, schools would have to adapt. Ef already uses half local half native speaker for children�s classes. Would some go bankrupt, maybe a few that are already living on the edge. There are probably more schools that only have native speakers than schools with native speakers. These might not be as well known or as large, but they are still successful enterprises turning a profit. IMHO, LIA is one of the best schools around and the hire only local teachers. The students are confident and communicative.

This seems to be an emotional response of someone whose livelihood is threatened, not a logical decision on what is best for the students. There are plenty of other countries that already have these regulations in place and the esl industry hasn�t collapsed. Look at Thailand, ever since they arrested that Canadian pedophile, they have been very strict in enforcing college degrees and even police background checks. The salaries are comparable to Indonesia and the cost of living is much higher. Still they have tons of people trying to work there. In general, when u factor in salary and benefits vs cost of living and quality of life, I don�t think 1 country has much of an advantage over any other country or EVERYONE would be trying to teach there. Basically it comes down to an individual�s personal desire and country choice, or a specific school offering a great package or long vacations, or professional development or whatever it is that that person deems important.

If u care about your students and want to teach for a career, why not get an education and certification? Then u don�t need to worry about any new policies that they put in place, u will be covered. Also u will be truly global as u will be able to teach in any country in the world and work at international schools vs language mills. World of difference in salary, benefits, development, quality of life and job satisfaction.

[travelNteach]

@ BG finally things are back to normal...... i disagree with u. lol
i like indonesia, it has a little of the old wild west mentality. i would die of boredom living in singapore. it is clean and the food is great but they people are like robots/zombies.

i think when u compare like schools.... language mill to language mill, or international school to international school..... the pay vs cost of living is pretty close across the board. if not, people would all be flocking to the same place and shunning all others. then as u said, the enjoyment of life plays a factor. with all the whining that goes on at the korean board, korea has to pay more to attract and retain teachers. same with the sterilty of saudi araba. some actually enjoy these places, but most just grab the money and run. nothing wrong with that.

i used to make 4000/month in japan. much more than most people. but didnt enjoy it. i live here and have a blast and still save 1500/month. i dont live on a budget and travel all the time, both domestically and internationally. so for me, indo actually offers me much more than i could reasonably expect in any of the neighboring countries.

and i totally disagree that having a high school diploma is enough to teach, with or without a 120 hr course. teachers should have more education than those they are teacher. to teach at a uni, u must have a masters. to teach k-12 u must have a BA. if thailand, vietnam and other countries can demand it, why not indonesia. lots of people here do have degrees and yet we still came. i think wages/benefits packages would increase somewhat to attract more qualified and get rid of some of the unqualifed. no big deal. u wouldnt want a dental receptionist doing your root canal would ya?

[eddie honda]

[aku_tonpa]

Interesting. Does anyone have any direct experience of teachers having to leave or being turned away because they don't have a the BA/MA that is now needed?

How about degrees like a BA (Hons) Education with Psychology Studies or similar? They don't give QTS, are they cosidered relevant enough to teach here?

[Bule_Gila]

@ TravelNteach

Now you are discussing a persons intention to teach at a certain location.

I agree with you on most points made, as I enjoy teaching here, although I could make more elsewhere.

I believe that Indonesia's requirement should increase to match its development.

[Durian Tango]

@aku_tonpa:

I can tell you that those with degrees that match the requirements are getting through OK (though not without delay) and it seems that the BA is the most important piece of paper - whereas the TEFL certificate doesn't seem to be important i.e. a 60 hour TEFL course is fine, as long as the BA fits.

For those with a BA in say Psychology - they are not going through, even if they have a CELTA or Trinity or something similar. Even those with a degree in Education seem to be having trouble if it's not specifically in English, though it appears there is some room for negotiation on these finer points.

It's tough times at the moment, but I already sense that DIKNAS is re-visiting how strict they are being on these degrees and that we haven't heard the last word from them yet.

[travelNteach]

@ eddie

[benbobaggins]

Hey all,

Interesting points made by both sides of the argument.

My school has 3 ex-pat teachers without the English degree - for the last 2 years, no bonus has been paid to all teachers (the THR was paid to locals) with the excuse that the school is in financial trouble despite being backed by one of the largest companies in Indonesia.

Furthermore, the school fees rose 11.3 % last academic year - to general outrage - and has again increased this year, but by what amount I'm currently not privy to. Again, there has been strong, vocal anger by parents with some students planning to leave in January. All teachers from the previous year stayed on, so there was no need to hire from outside or pay for flights and recruitment costs.

There has been no mention about degrees in English needed, and when I quizzed the Principal, she knew nothing about it!

I mention this above because, I feel, that although schools, and the Education Dept, have every right to have a School mission or Vision to have the very best teachers available for their students, there are only a limited very best to go around.

If other school are recruiting from within, rising tuition fees and not paying bonuses - where will they get the money for these new, properly qualified teachers? Increse fees? Well, my school has done this already - twice - and students are leaving! Will school settle for less profit - I'm not convinced - the difference here is that schools are a business...

Does having a degree in English make a good teacher?

It's all very interesting, and I'm sure things will become clearer in the future.

Anyway, I'm off to try and sell my school to some new parents...

Bye

[travelNteach]

nice post benbo. it would be interesting to know where the extra money is going.

[scooby doo]

This is an interesting yet depressing thread.

1. @bulegila, who started this thread - what do teachers need to qualify for the new immigration law? This has nothing to do with the immigration dept. The regulation is a directive form the Ministry of Education aka Diknas who give a 'recommendation' as to whether an applicant is eligible for work in the education sector in Indonesia.

I doubt that Diknas officials have any idea who is qualified to teach EFL in Indonesia and it is in typical arrogance that they have come up with this law. For years (I've been here over a decade), their approach regarding qualifications has been 'close enough is good enough'. Since October, Diknas has decided that 'nothing is good enough' except a degree in the subject in which the teacher is hired to teach. FOR ENGLISH LANGUAGE TEACHERS IN LANGUAGE SCHOOLS this means a university degree in English. This is THE point that some readers of this thread have failed to understand.

@benbobaggins, I think the reason your principal hasn't heard of this is because the regulation doesn't directly affect k-12 schools. Although, the regulation does pertain to all foreign teachers in the formal AND non formal sector, the difference is that k-12 schools hiring foreign teachers can 'apply' for a teacher in many subjects (it's a school after all...). If your degree is in science they can hire you as a science teacher, if your degree is in math they can hire you as a math teacher. K-12 schools have a range of degrees to choose from. K-12 schools are also not required to hire teachers from the list of anglophone countries.

Based on this regulation, since language schools (by their very definition) offer English language tuition, diknas will only give the recommendation to applicants who hold English degrees.

@aku tonpa, yes, I have direct experience that this is happening to language schools. Is it causing problems for k-12 schools, I don't think so but it's not my area so I can't be sure. Is Diknas approving extensions of visas for teachers who started before this regulation came into effect? For now, yes. in 2011, who knows? Like duriantango said, Diknas doesn't seem to be especially concerned about QTS, they seem to want the subject of the degree to be relevant. Then again, there is a lot confusion and things are pending so it is difficult to say exactly what they want.

@travelNteach, you continue to focus on whether teachers should have a degree to teach here. Nobody really disputes that, the objection is to having that degree in English, TESOL or linguistics Indeed in most countries, developed or otherwise, a BA degree is required (either as a govt stipulation or as an employers' preference or both) However, very few countries narrowly restrict the degree to the relevant subject for the reasons mentioned by eddie honda - not enough applicants will qualify to meet such demands. The few countries that I know who do this are in the Gulf and offer starting salaries of $2500 but like you said not everybody is suited to life in the ME. Once again, these are not developing nations like Indonesia and they have much smaller populations/demands for foreign teachers

2. @eddie honda, you are a lucid voice on this thread and I agree with many of your points.

@fladudeI could see a law which is crafted to require some kind of certification, or a CELTA/ TEFL at a minimum, but to require graduates to have majored in specific areas is unrealistic for a country that is as poor as Indonesia. The law will also turn away a large number of qualified teachers who happened to major in other subject areas (such as myself and the individual above who majored in Photography).

This is the real shame of this regulation. Teflers want to come here for the simple reason that they know it might turn out to be the best year of their life. Because of this regulation, many will go elsewhere. Sure, it might throw EF into a crisis but it probably won't affect salaries very much in the long run. So what if wages increase from 8-9 million ? It won't do any good attracting those teachers with the proper degree because they're not out there!

Incidentally, I think local teachers are far from qualified to take on the English language needs of the current generation. Especially in the provinces. An interesting fact is that the department of higher education(Dikti) has annual funding for 2000(!!!) full scholarships for lecturers to pursue post graduate degrees (S2 and S3) in foreign universities overseas. It is another sad fact that only about 500 university lecturers actually qualify for these scholarships because their average IELTS score is 5.5 or lower.

And finally, the simple reason why EF (and the like) have such a successful business model is because they have realized exactly what their customers want.

Given the following choices;

a). courses with a qualified/certified/experienced local teacher
b). courses with a qualified/certified/experienced non native speaker
c). courses with a native speaker (maybe qualified, maybe not)

I believe most Indonesians students will choose option C. (I personally would choose b, but that's just my pedagogical perspective.)

I guess the government has decided to narrow the market options down to a). and d). courses with native speaker English literature graduates.

Imagine for a moment... an Indonesia where professional standards for all other professions (technical or academic) are set so unrealistically...

[travelNteach]

@ SD, thanks for a very informative and well written post. I work in the K-12 sector, so perhaps my school gets a disproportionate number of applicants with degrees in english.

u are very knowledgeable in these new regulations. do u have a link that offers a clear descriptions of the new requirements, preferably in english?

I have the ones provided by the earlier thread on this board and the links provided by jakartass blog

indo: http://dikti.go.id/tatalaksana/upload/Permen66-2009.pdf

difficult to read google translation via jakatass: http://translate.google.co.id/translate?hl=en&sl=id&u=http://dikti.go.id/tatalaksana/upload/Permen66-2009.pdf&ei=9qrCTMfKEJO-sAOEm4zwCQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dperaturan%2Bmenteri%2Bpendidikan%2Bnasional%2Bnomor%2B66%2Btahun%2B2009%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3D9ov%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%20

i notice that article 3.2a states that the teacher must have a BA in the subject that they are going to teach. This refers to the formal sector only. However article 4.2 says that teachers must have a masters. any idea what "Power of education" refers to in article 4? does this mean DOS or headmaster/principal?

also article 3.3 pertains to both formal and non formal and says that a certificate is required in the target language. does this mean a ESL certificate or a uni degree in English/linguistics?

Finally, i notice last month that most of the job posts stated that a BA in english. linguistics, esl was required. however most of the posts on dave's for November state that a college degree (any major) and CTEFL/TRINITY or equivalent esl cert is required.

all of this is a bit confusing. sounds like that all teachers informal and formal have to have esl certificates (college degrees???). but teachers in formal education must have a degree in the subject that they are teaching in addition to an esl cert. is this correct or am i missing something? thanks in advance.

it will be interesting to see if they are going to be able to implement these regulations or if they will fall to the wayside, much like that often talked about requirement for all expats to pass a bhs indo language proficiency test in order to qualify for a work permit.

[aku_tonpa]

As travelteach has mentioned, it is all a bit confusing.

Due to the changes in the law I want to gain the necessary qualifications. However, based on what Durian Tango said, even people with degrees in education are having a hard time. Would it be better to get a BA/MA in English/Linguistics/TESOL rather than, say a PGCE?

Which one would be more useful in other Asian countries outside Indonesia?

[scooby doo]

Translating what the law says and interpreting what it means are two very separate issues. Hence the confusion.

I think the complication for language school teachers starts with article 3.2 point c).
....berpendidikan sesuai dengan bidang ilmu yang diampu dari perguruan tinggi yang terakreditasi bagi pendidik pada satuan pendidikan nonformal;
which seems to say that teachers in non-formal educational institutions must hold an academic qualification in their field from an accredited institute of higher learning. Your average tefl certificate doesn't fall into that category, I suppose.

3.3 indeed talks about a certificate in language teaching for language teachers in the formal and non-formal sectors. Nevertheless, now they are asking for more than a certificate, aren't they?

I think somewhere along the line, the officials at Diknas decided to use the Indonesian system as a reference point, failing to consider that the educational degree system in other countries might be different.

Indonesian English language teachers, whether in schools or English courses almost always have a degree in Sastra Inggris (=English literature) or Pendidikan bahasa Inggris (=English teaching). All job vacancies for local teachers require these degrees and some places also want their teachers to have a type of local practicum certificate called Acta IV.

Perhaps then, it seems logical to Diknas to also require the native speakers to have a university degree in only those two 'subjects'?

I don't know, it's just a theory.

Sorry, I don't have further sources of information about this matter other than what I've read on this board. But I do think this regulation will continue to be upheld in the majority of cases. Sure, there are always ways... the schools and their agents know how to encourage and negotiate more flexibility in specific cases but that is clearly not a reliable way to do business. And that is not good for schools, teachers and especially students.

And Obama spoke so sincerely about opportunities for education, cultural exchange and development. I had moist eyes but I guess nobody at Diknas was listening.

[travelNteach]

the confusing part for me is that the indonesia government usually refers to university degrees using the indonsesian system. D1, D2, or D3 are for Diploma and the years it took to complete that course of study. 1,2, or 3 years. In the case of S1= strata 1 or bachelors degree. S2= strata 2 or masters degree and S3 = strata3 or Doctorate. the only time i have heard university degrees differently is for lawyers... sheister (bachelors) and meister hukum (masters of law). it might be different for other jobs such as the medical field, but i am not aware of this.


obiously my bhs indo skills are not good enough. i will see if i can get one of my indonesian co-workers to translate it for me.