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kpjf
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 385
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 Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| mitsui wrote: |
| Anyone who has taught in Japan knows what I talk about. |
That does not answer my question. |
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rtm
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Shanghai |
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| kpjf wrote: |
| Couldn't we also argue the exact opposite? I don't think many Taiwanese/HKers would be happy at being labelled China! At least the ones I know. |
Right, but by listing Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Taiwan, nothing is being labeled as "China," so that problem is avoided.
Beyond that, the rankings might list Shanghai and HK as such because even though HK is unarguably part of China, it has a different system. |
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kpjf
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Shanghai |
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| rtm wrote: |
| kpjf wrote: |
| Couldn't we also argue the exact opposite? I don't think many Taiwanese/HKers would be happy at being labelled China! At least the ones I know. |
Right, but by listing Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Taiwan, nothing is being labeled as "China," so that problem is avoided.
Beyond that, the rankings might list Shanghai and HK as such because even though HK is unarguably part of China, it has a different system. |
I see your point of course, but the other 64 participants are countries, why should the 65th be allowed the exception? Because we don't want to offend the mighty Chinese government? It would be like having a World Cup and allowing Bayern Munich to take part instead of Germany. Maybe we should be changing "Taiwan" to Taipei while we're at it? 
| Quote: |
From the BBC:
Shanghai was the single most successful education system, but there were complaints that the standards in an individual city should not be measured against the outcomes of a diverse national system, such as the United States or Germany. |
Exactly. This study is designed to test ability in a whole country, not one selective area. |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Shanghai |
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| kpjf wrote: |
| rtm wrote: |
| kpjf wrote: |
| Couldn't we also argue the exact opposite? I don't think many Taiwanese/HKers would be happy at being labelled China! At least the ones I know. |
Right, but by listing Shanghai, Hong Kong, and Taiwan, nothing is being labeled as "China," so that problem is avoided.
Beyond that, the rankings might list Shanghai and HK as such because even though HK is unarguably part of China, it has a different system. |
I see your point of course, but the other 64 participants are countries, why should the 65th be allowed the exception? Because we don't want to offend the mighty Chinese government? It would be like having a World Cup and allowing Bayern Munich to take part instead of Germany. Maybe we should be changing "Taiwan" to Taipei while we're at it?
| Quote: |
From the BBC:
Shanghai was the single most successful education system, but there were complaints that the standards in an individual city should not be measured against the outcomes of a diverse national system, such as the United States or Germany. |
Exactly. This study is designed to test ability in a whole country, not one selective area. |
You posted the stupid list to back up your own point, I don't know why you're complaining about it now or why you posted it in the first place.
Anyway, I'm wary of lists like this most of the time, you need to be well aware of what is at stake and what is being measured.
You might find a list that ranks Japanese high in terms of English ability then you go there and find nobody speaks it to you.
While several places are actually seeking to emulate the Japanese school system, would you be up for adapting it in your own country? Shanghai could be a nice example there, do you know the pressures the children are under there to produce test results? My experience of talking to people that have been raised under these sort of systems is that they tend to be on the side of it isn't worth it. They end up resenting the place that educated them and they say they forget most of what they learn at school (like we all do) anyway.
I think you made a few good points though. I couldn't imagine teaching in a public school and not having at least some demotivated students, especially when it comes to teaching English in Japan. That's par for the course and the fact is English still plays second fiddle to other subjects and the overall Nihonjin training they are going through. There must be so many teachers around the world who face similar troubles. Language teachers in English speaking countries for starters!
I wouldn't say the education system is bad on the whole, but there is lack of flexibility there regarding English.
There are signs that this will cause trouble as well, depending on what you read. Today I read a news report saying China and Korea are overtaking them in terms of academic publications, and I have heard a good deal about how their low English ability is damaging their competitive edge in many other areas. |
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kpjf
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 385
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Shanghai |
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| RM1983 wrote: |
You posted the stupid list to back up your own point, I don't know why you're complaining about it now |
Because rtm was trying to justify why Shanghai are in a list where every other participants is a country so I was discussing this with him/her. I thought that was pretty obvious!
The list is a pretty respected global school league table.
| Quote: |
| ...or why you posted it in the first place. |
Because of the other poster talking about how crap the Japanese education system is and comparing it to Finland with no idea of the reality. Yet, that person is too negative and narrow-minded to open his eyes.
| Quote: |
| While several places are actually seeking to emulate the Japanese school system, would you be up for adapting it in your own country? |
I don't advocate emulating any country's system in my country. They tried this in the UK, I'm not sure if you heard of this BBC programme http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b065661d? Whilst it showed better test performance it would never work in UK. The Finnish system may be perfect in Finland but suck in Taiwan and vice versa. |
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mitsui
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:08 am Post subject: |
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Well at least I live in this country and have taught here.
Anyone who has worked here knows changes are needed.
A lack of critical thinking is a big issue here, as is rote memorization.
Even Japanese people are interested in what Finnish education is. |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:30 am Post subject: Re: Shanghai |
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| kpjf wrote: |
| RM1983 wrote: |
You posted the stupid list to back up your own point, I don't know why you're complaining about it now |
Because rtm was trying to justify why Shanghai are in a list where every other participants is a country so I was discussing this with him/her. I thought that was pretty obvious!
The list is a pretty respected global school league table.
| Quote: |
| ...or why you posted it in the first place. |
Because of the other poster talking about how crap the Japanese education system is and comparing it to Finland with no idea of the reality. Yet, that person is too negative and narrow-minded to open his eyes.
| Quote: |
| While several places are actually seeking to emulate the Japanese school system, would you be up for adapting it in your own country? |
I don't advocate emulating any country's system in my country. They tried this in the UK, I'm not sure if you heard of this BBC programme http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b065661d? Whilst it showed better test performance it would never work in UK. The Finnish system may be perfect in Finland but suck in Taiwan and vice versa. |
I haven't heard of that, but I will check it when we get our new internet connection.
A while ago, actually on this forum, someone posted a news article saying that research has shown rote learning and obedience are genetically built into South East Asian peoples. Controversial but interesting. |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| mitsui wrote: |
Well at least I live in this country and have taught here.
Anyone who has worked here knows changes are needed.
A lack of critical thinking is a big issue here, as is rote memorization.
Even Japanese people are interested in what Finnish education is. |
Some of my JTEs here have a big focus on autonomous learning and independent study, extensive reading and the like, which has been rewarding to contribute to even in a small way. I think many are interested in implementing these ideas but have to make sure the exams are passed. I think there might be a bit of a generational gap, newer teachers seem more progressive but they have to build their own confidence first and have to navigate the politics of the teacher's room.
I know the lack of critical thinking is famous here but I only agree so far with it these days. It must be funny when you get Mr 24 year-old American ALT preaching about creativity and critical thinking and then he cant figure out how to use his washing machine. Much like the OP in the video right? (edit - on the other DO NOT TEACH HERE thread) He is critical in the literal sense but obviously he missed out on some basic skills from his Western Education. There are plenty like him wherever I have taught in Asia. They bemoan the lack of creativity here and then they prove to be totally uncreative when you see how they teach. And how they live as well, that expat bubble isnt a very creative one, same bars, same local girls, same lack of adventure on repeat until they have saved enough to leave.
I don't mean you there by the way, but I think you must catch my drift. I had a kind of mentor here when I arrived who complained about this, and having stayed in touch with him his idea of being a unique and creative individual is having skateboarding as a hobby. He refuses to change his eikaiwa job after 10 years here, he more or less refuses to learn Japanese, he must rely on his wife to do so many things yet he puts the boot in on the lack of individuality at every turn.
Back home, it seems like there is a lack of critical thinking in general as well. Most people now seem to spend their spare time posting nonsense on Facebook, watching reality TV, even following politics in an unthinking way. The recent Paris attacks and the aftermath were embarrassing to follow on Facebook, so many people rushing to throw their opinion into the ring but yet obviously have no real stake in any of it except to be seen to be empathic or whatever.
More right wing people post ridiculous lies about muslims and terrorists without fact-checking anything, people more to the left will post nonsense as long as it will get 'likes' and then they will think you are a facist if you disagree with them.
Music is more and more "cookie -cutter" and most of the blockbuster films these days are sequels or remakes. And so on
I'm not sure if "critical thinking" is really working in the West that much, except for a few genuises and the already rich. |
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mitsui
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 2:20 am Post subject: |
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I just mean things such as trying debate in classes where people don't want to give their opinion.
Just expressing opinions is a challege for students who are used to doing what they are told.
Many of these students are members in a sport club. |
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mitsui
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:08 am Post subject: |
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Debate is fine for students better at English. I prefer just to focus on basic English for required classes, but I work with a couple of people who are idealistic and know that curriculum takes time to make.
One JTE told me that debate is American and "we Japanese don't like it" even though she herself likes it. Students just are not used to this kind of learning.
I guess preserving the wa is more important than anything. Anyone who does well or poorly in English class stands out (with speeches, for example), and this really is an issue for boys
who are most concerned with their face, and think it is cool to be lazy. |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:55 am Post subject: |
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Yeah I dunno who you teach but mine don't have the language ability to really debate unless I scaffold it quite heavily.
They don't wanna disagree with the teacher that much is true. They'd need to be pretty comfortable to disagree with a native.speaker in English. |
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weigookin74
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Posts: 265
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| NorthofAmerica wrote: |
Just wandering in here to Daves and kinda seeing what the latest is... interesting thread.
I lived in Japan for about 2.5 years and then China for 5.5 years (then Mexico for a year) and am a bit surprised at people's experiences and opinions.
One thing that is for sure is no two people have the same experience and it's not accurate to listen to one person talk about an entire country of other people as any sort of fact. It's not that the person is bullshitting at all but just that experiences vary based on sooo many things, even just dumb luck.
I got suuuuper lucky in Japan. It was my first place overseas and I took a random eikaiwa job in the countryside cuz it had a company car and all the 250k - 60k company apartment details as every other job. Basically sneaked in on a working holiday visa and was Bambi on ice. Utterly clueless.
But everything went swimmingly. Within 3 weeks had locals taking me out for drinks and giving me tours. Met local girls, down to earth foreigners. A few months later I was posted to another small city north of Kyoto. Met amazing locals that I still visit and consider friends for life. Bartended, learned a lot of Japanese and just loved life!
Since every gamble I had taken had paid off so far I thought, "Man, this is my first foreign country! I gotta see more!!" and I packed up and left. Still torn about that decision but things work out in the end.
Thought China was the up and coming place and moved for my first year to a small city of 6million in the northeast, things are a different scale in China which you learn quickly. Dalian was an okay place but I was bait and switched into a uni job that was in the middle of nowhere and paid squat. PLUS they own your visa so walking off to find another job is a lot more difficult than in Japan.
But after a year that I still enjoyed I moved to Beijing and basically killed it working the English mills that everyone is derisive about. Miss that place too sometimes. But things all work out in the end.
Long stories, both experiences.
Comparing the two based on my experiences (and that's a major caveat) I am surprised by what people say about:
Money - Definitely uni jobs in China pay little, but there are sooooo many opportunities to make more. Uni is few hours and a free apartment so it has its perks. But in Beijing I made 20-30k in good months doing a few different things. Anyone with half a brain can make 15k+ even non-native speakers doing kindergartens hungover. It's crazy easy.
In Japan I made about 300k in after a few years. Did 270k (10k a year raise, whoo!) plus some privates. Didn't have the hustle I had in China or experience plus small town vs. Beijing opportunities.
Cost of living is rising fast in China's 1st tier but still, YOU WILL BE RICH.
People - I met so many foreigners in China who had worked in other countries including Japan and we all had our own opinions, no two the same.
Lots of people who worked in Japan thought that Japanese were cold, hid their feelings, and hard to make friends with, etc... I feel the exact opposite. I LOVE JAPANESE PEOPLE TO THIS DAY. Met some of my best friends, always understood the sort of passive-aggressive way without feeling it was dishonest. Love lots of things about Japanese culture. That said, worst English learners ever haha. Honestly, a very rigid and inflexible mentality that pays attention to process over results and is stuck in the past. It's depressing sometimes how closed the Japanese mind can be.
Chinese people on the other hand are totally the opposite. Spitting, shoving, shouting, there is not a lot of pubic grace. But you are free to do what you want without people casting aspersions too. For a country that isn't 'free' you can do whatever you want most of the time, even if it's disgusting. People here are cut throat and they will screw over foreigners big time... and each other so don't take it personally. China doesn't have hippies cuz unlike Japan's stagnant economy built on previous wealth people here grew up poor and have their first 'get money' generation going balls to the wall. Intense and hard workers abound. Lots of sleepy lazy people too though. Perhaps it's these reasons that make this generation of Chinese soooo lame though. Never made too many close friends despite so much trying and studying, always had that distance that people speak of when they speak of Japan. People have basically no hobbies here and the worst taste in everything. Plus censorship guarantees lame culture getting promoted.
To the point: I didn't like Chinese people or their culture in general.
Overall - I stayed in China because I met great foreigners, many who were there 10+ years. Like we always said, "China would be perfect if it weren't for the Chinese." Awesome money, cheap food, cheaper booze, and lots of things to do.
Japan is the opposite to me. Mediocre money, expensive living, but goddamn.... it's Japan. Interesting culture, people, great liquor.
Apples and Oranges I guess.
Thought about Korea?
/rant |
I have friends from Korea who have gone onto China because it's now the best deal in Asia for pay, work conditions, etc. Korea in the 90's is probably how China is now. Maybe even the 2000's decade. Lots of jobs and the power is in the hands of the English teacher (in China). There was a lot of cultural crap you had to tolerate. Not so much nowadays. Much more modern and developed. The people's minds too this decade (in Korea). Things are still not bad, but not as good as they were. Korea is more modern than China by far and has a cheaper living cost than Japan. China's living cost is the cheapest with many salaries being nearly the same.
Korea is in a slow decline as wages for your average private school is the same as a decade ago with more things being taxed and living costs rising quickly. You can still save but less than before. In another 10 years, will it be like Japan? English usage is probably the best in Korea out of the 3 countries and in recent years more open to outside ideas. The younger generation and even some middle aged people being somewhat westernized compared to a decade before. Less of a "foreign devil" mindset nowadays than there use to be.
I guess Korea is in between China and Japan in terms of quality of life when it comes to disposable income, modernity, manners, expectation to conform, etc. Foreigners in Korea still get leeway more than a Korean would. Korea is pretty modern. Banking is easy, online and such in English. Transferring money home online can be done in 10 minutes. Bank machines open 8 Am to Midnight every day. Convenience stores have ATMs for after hours. You can even do cash advance off your home country's credit card from them. Less pressure to conform as a foreigner as I said. Subways in Seoul, clean and modern and cheap.
Also, you don't have to dress up in Korea. I think in Japan you do? |
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steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:17 am Post subject: Re: Shanghai |
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| RM1983 wrote: |
| A while ago, actually on this forum, someone posted a news article saying that research has shown rote learning and obedience are genetically built into South East Asian peoples. Controversial but interesting. |
That would be me. East Asians have a version of one allele that may give them a propensity towards being risk-averse and comformity while Europeans have higher frequencies of the other version of the allele that may give them a propensity towards risk-taking and more individualistic behavior.
The link uses inaccurate language as behavior is more likely a combination of genes and culture co-evolving.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2113350/Why-individualism-free-thinking-genes-British-people.html |
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hdeth
Joined: 20 Jan 2015
Posts: 583
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: |
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To clear up some misinformation about China and to clarify some points....
My current high school job pays about $2,100 after tax. Most people teach 16 45-minute periods per week. Lots of office hours and some evening classes. Housing provided but I pay for all utilities except heat. Utilities are so cheap here I don't really think about it. EDITED: Many people earned more than me. Some first year teachers earned significantly less.
Next job pays around $1,600. Housing provided and allowances for utilities and food. 16-20 teaching hours in contract, no office hours. University job. Excellent location (for me) and supposedly pretty good students (English majors). EDIT: I was offered ~10k at two other places but went with this one mostly because the other two didn't have AC in the classrooms, in Guangdong.
Moving because I don't like this part of Beijing and want to spend a year writing and it's too hard to do with these kind of hours. Plus the students they have me teaching are spoiled with absolute zero motivation. The better classes are great but they stick the teacher with the same classes for three years and I don't really like the idea of being stuck with mediocre students for three years.
5-6k is not the norm, especially if one has decent quals.
However, the OP is 55+ I think, which limits his options to basically the shit jobs due to visa regulations.
Many people stay here 4-5+ years but most I know say they would go home if they had a kid. These are certified teachers who have a chance at a real job back home though. I don't know what someone with a bare bachelor's degree would do. I would think they'd be tempted to stay here.
10 years from now you might see a lot of old-timers...the Japanese boom in TEFLing was at least 10 years before the Chinese one.
EDITED:
I have never met a Japanese backpacker either...traveled quite a bit in SE asia backpacker style too. |
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Shakey
Joined: 29 Aug 2014
Posts: 199
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| weigookin74 wrote: |
Korea is in a slow decline as wages for your average private school is the same as a decade ago with more things being taxed and living costs rising quickly. You can still save but less than before. In another 10 years, will it be like Japan?
Less of a "foreign devil" mindset nowadays than there use to be.
Korea is pretty modern. Banking is easy, online and such in English. Transferring money home online can be done in 10 minutes. Bank machines open 8 Am to Midnight every day. Convenience stores have ATMs for after hours. You can even do cash advance off your home country's credit card from them. Less pressure to conform as a foreigner as I said. Subways in Seoul, clean and modern and cheap. |
Korea elicits the strongest emotions from TEFL teachers.
Japan, Taiwan or Thailand, for example, do not generally evoke such strong feelings of hatred or contempt like Korea does. I have never seen TEFL teachers get so upset or angry about their teaching experience as I have from those people who have lived and worked in Korea.
However, Seoul is a very modern city. It's convenient, has a great subway system and there are lots of choices for eating, shopping and entertainment. Taxis and the subways are much more affordable than they are in Japan, too. So as long weekend getaway destination, I like visiting Seoul. However, living there and working with and for Koreans is an uncomfortable thought.
Yes, Korea seems to trail behind Japan by a decade or so. The EFL industry in Korea is experiencing what Japan started going through in the early 2000s. The TEFL industry in Japan is pretty much on life support. Some major players went bankrupt and the advent of dispatch agencies have really saturated the market and driven down salaries and benefits.
China is where all the work is now. And, as a TEFL teacher, you have to go to where the work is. It is no longer in Japan, and Korean is heading in that direction, too. |
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