Job Discussion Forums

[snuffy519]

This is the last thing I'll say about this. What you said is simply not true. You had the German-Soviet non-aggression pact, signed in 1939, which lasted until the invasion in '41. The US was in N. Africa fighting the Germans in '42. The Soviets sustained so many casualties largely due to military incompetence. Ironic, considering that they did everything in their power to allow Germany to conquer Europe prior to Barbarrosa. Read Weinberg's "A World at Arms." It's a big book, but you'll begin to see how complicit the Soviets were in allowing the Germans to massacre millions in Europe beginning in the mid 30s up until '41. The Soviets were never noble allies. The made a deal with the Devil and got burned. That they reaped so much after the war speaks more to its initial incompetence (casualty numbers), the Russian Winter, and propaganda than it does to any virtue they held in common with the West. Their post war strategy sort of reveals their character, no?

Then again, you may be the sort that wears a Che Guevara t-shirt and chooses not to remember the truth.

Oh, uh, don't work in Europe illegally. It's wrong. If you do, you lose the ability to complain about anything.

[stillnosheep]

[SueH]

Oh, for goodness sake. Various contributions were made to the fight against fascism (whatever that has to do with this b.b.) but denigrating other people's contribution isn't a very mature attitude.

I don't need books to tell me that Britain entered the war unprepared in 1939, or the fact that the food ration included 1 fresh egg a month, 2 ounces of cheese a week etc. and rationing continued in some form until 1952. I learnt that from my Mum, who was strafed on the way to school by a low flying Heinkel. I had my Dad to tell me of the generosity and hospitality of Americans when he did his flying training in the US, or the completely different conditions prevailing over there.

I still think the sacrifices of the Russian people were far greater though.

[csfek]

I'm not writiing to join in the "what happened in WWII and after" debate, I just wanted to point out an opportunity for Americans who want to work legally in Italy and other places in Western Europe. The Fulbright commission offers one year English Teaching Assistantships in some European countries, including Italy, Spain, and France. For some of them, you need a Master's degree, but not for all of them.
Here's the website for those interested:
http://www.us.fulbrightonline.org/thinking_teaching.html.

[SueH]

Thanks csfek! There are ways of getting here, but it is difficult and any additional route will be welcomed. It probably wouldn't harm to put it in a separate thread, as I nearly didn't revisit this one, and others might feel likewise.

[newsygirl]

Although this article is on the Czech Republic, I would advise anyone thinking about working in the E.U., illegally to read this posting.
I just returned from Germany a few months ago, and the German officals at the airport checked my documents and scanned my passport to make sure I didn't extend my stay illegaly. Be careful if you try to break Italy's laws on immigration...

From the Prague Post:

Two Americans to be deported under Schengen
Men being held in refugee camp in East Bohemia

February 6th, 2008 issue

(Updated Feb. 12, 2008)"Two Americans who were illegally residing in the Czech Republic have been arrested, put in a camp for illegal aliens and are awaiting deportation, Mlad� fronta Dnes reports.

Police in the East Bohemian town of Prostějov arrested two American citizens who exceeded the three months they are allowed to legally stay in the Czech Republic without a visa, according to the newspaper. They are being held in a camp for refugees in Po�torn� na Břeclavsku.

The two men, who came to the Czech Republic in October, failed to leave the country during the three-month period. If the men had left, they would have automatically had the legal right to stay another three months when they came back.

Schengen agreements were made between European Union countries in 1985 and 1990 that allow residents in participating countries to travel freely without border controls. As part of European Union enlargement, the Czech Republic entered the Schengen zone in December.

Before the Czech Republic joined the Schengen zone, it was common practice for foreigners to leave for a neighboring country in any three-month period to fulfill the legal requirement.

But now that the nearest "foreign" border is with Ukraine, the procedure has become more complicated. Along with the Czech Republic, eight other countries joined the Schengen travel area in 2007 -- Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. Prior to the expansion, there were 15 Schengen states. The island of Cyprus and Romania and Bulgaria are expected to join in the future."

The article's not clear that the men would have had to stay out of the zone for at least 90 days, to have the right to return for 90 more...but that is the case. No more one-day border runs

[BELS]

OOps! I must have got the wrong thread, I was looking for a legal well paid TEFL profession in Italy but it appears I accidently got into the current affairs thread about illegal American and Australian immigrants workin in Italy. Sorry about that.

Now where's my green card!

[mizzoumike76]

I say, if you want to work in Italy illegally, then all you have to do is stay out of trouble. My sister is a police officer in the States, and the only way an illegal will even get picked up by ICE is if they committ a felony. At which time they go to jail in the U.S., thank you very much American taxpayers.

If a cop off hand asks to see your papers and gives you grief, he wants a handout, plain and simple (this in no way applies "only" to Italian police) If he's really pissed and starts threatening jail or deportation, it is because your bribe was too small. Try again. Unless you have personally insulted the officer or committed a crime (which might include being an all around American Jackass, something I am VERY good at by abstain from whilst abroad), you aren't worth the time/trouble to deport or even arrest. You are not the only one in Italy working illegally, and simply being polite, cooperative, and respectful towards the officers will go a long way towards your ass not experiencing a foot in it.

Police do a dirty, often thankless job the world over. Most police aren't paid well at all, in fact they are probably paid poorly in most places. Supplementing their income with a few Euros here and there is likely common practice, though us Yanks recoil at the thought. I say do the above, and you will be fine. Give the guy a break and he will likely let you off the hook. Give him grief or an attitude, and he'll be happy to make your life hell for his own amusement.

Remember that questioning authority is a very American indulgence police in the rest of the world aren't going to think is too funny, and will probably get you in a new set of matching bracelets in short order.

(going back to the beginning of this thread) I will say that as an American I personally love Brits. They're friendly, hospitable, and have no problems whatsoever telling you how they feel, even if it hurts your feelings.

Illegals do jobs in the US that Americans CAN do, but for far less money, which is why they are here. The rampant exploitation of this (by both Mexicans and their US employers) has led to degradation and decay of many Mexican communities South of the border. A problem that needs fixing. The difference between our illegals and, say, an American teaching English in Italy illegally is, the American/native speaker has a skill (native speaker of English) that cannot be found locally, and must be imported.

As for Russia, they lost so many in WWII defending Stalingrad, that after the war they (and a lot of other nations) said "never again!" and spent years building up vast supplies of small arms. It is said the Russian plan was to be able to put a rifle in the hands of every man, woman, and child should they need to do so. Millions of old bolt-action Mosin-Nagant rifles were produced after the war, preserved in Cosmoline, and stored away in old mine shafts for the next world war that never came. As a result, these now obsolete arms are being sold off to the highest bidders: the American collectors, who can pick up virtually new, unused, well-built, high-powered rifles for as little as $69! I myself have a half dozen in my collection of antiques from around the world.

And to you Yanks: If you want to come someplace where you will be welcomed, come to Albania. They love Americans here!

[spiral78]

I say, if you want to work in Italy illegally, then all you have to do is stay out of trouble. My sister is a police officer in the States, and the only way an illegal will even get picked up by ICE is if they committ a felony.

It's highly unclear how you are relating your personal experience in Albania and your sister's in the States to the situation of a North American in the Schengen zone.

First, it's not likely to be the police who catch someone up - it's unavoidable border/passport controls at airports and train stations.

Second, your sister's experience is obviously limited - I personally know several people who were indeed picked up by ICE simply for staying in the country illegally - they committed no crimes otherwise at all.

[mizzoumike76]

First, it's not likely to be the police who catch someone up - it's unavoidable border/passport controls at airports and train stations.

I thought that was obvious to someone planning to live illegally......stay away from places they check your papers!

I'm talking about the times you may interact with police in your day-to-day lives. And what did your friends do to get picked up by ICE? Nothing? That's what everyone says when they get jammed up.

My sincere apologies for bringing up any personal experiences of mine of my family members; I didn't know only experts were allowed to post. It will never happen again.

[spiral78]

Kinda hard to stay away from places where papers are checked, if you're coming to Europe from North America or some other continent, and if you ever wish to visit your home again in your life.

Further, the border police at country borders inside Schengen do not have to check papers, but they can always choose to do so.

I've been checked this year at train stations and even on a bus when crossing borders from Belgium-Netherlands and Netherlands-Germany. I've also been quizzed at three different airports (I'm legal, obviously).

The people I know who were deported to Europe by the US are not personal friends of mine. And they simply got caught without papers, mostly while working on construction sites.

[mizzoumike76]

There you have it. Those illegally working construction seems to be a lightning rod for media attention (never mind all the landscapers and housekeepers) especially in a union heavy state like my home of Missouri, that really gets their (union folk) goat!

I guess as Americans we are unaccustomed to anyone ever asking for travel papers or ID. I guess the plan would be to go to Italy as a tourist, and then simply stay and find work. I assume that would be the plan.

Personally, I would prefer to work legally and be able to sleep at night.

Getting caught without papers would not be good; I imagine one would need a hefty donation to get out of that. Then you might just run into a truly honest cop (or one that hates scofflaws) that be screwed either way.

[JonnyBravo]

Wow. This thread is the most embarrassing I've ever read on this site.

It appears that the only defenders (why do we need to be defended in a forum like this) of America are conservative Republicans who mock socialized medicine as backwards.

I'm an American currently living in Canada on my 4th visa and looking to travel further abroad in the next year. The basic health care issue that defenders of the current American system continually ignore is the tens of millions of uninsured Americans. I have to pay out of pocket for mediocre health insurance because I've been a traveler of sorts. It's not that cheap and doesn't cover that much.

The only reason I pay for it is so that when my body decides to break a leg and have a heart attack on the same day, I don't have to declare bankruptcy. My friend had a good paying HR job, with health insurance, and had to declare bankruptcy after emergency surgery because she hadn't carefully read the fine print on her policy and was limited to something like $1000 per visit. This meant she owed $25,000.

I'd rather we implemented a system in which we weren't at the whim of shady business practices. Do kids get a choice? of course not. The kids who grow up without health insurance often don't have healthy food or enough of it and learn in poor school systems. This is why the supposed greatest country on earth has some of the most massive expanses of destitute, impoverished people in the developed world.

I grew up in Detroit, I've seen every detail of it firsthand and I can attest to the fact that our health care system is only a point of pride when comparing the wealthy to the wealthy in different countries. Of course its more streamlined and faster. Only those who can afford it are using it.

As for the other ridiculous details of this thread, I'm rather surprised that this is even a conversation among ESL teachers or would-be ESL teachers. Maybe I have lofty egalitarian visions for the type of people that decide to leave their home country to travel the world and teach English, but I expect just a hair more of decency. People from any country have different outlooks on how to approach working or living in a foreign country. I'm not sure how any thread here ever became US v. Europe and dealt with topics like comparative healthcare policy, tolerance, and accusations of spinelessness and free rides.

If you encounter an American who accuses you of being a spineless European or tells you that you're continent had a free ride during and after WWII, politely tell them to go *beep* themselves and move on. You won't change their mind.