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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Many good points noted above. I totally agree that establishing your reputation comes FIRST and that takes time. Running around aimlessly taking on private students without an overall game plan is what leads to many of the problems mentioned earlier in this thread. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Jmbf wrote: |
As I said, language centres have their place, but if you do the sums and think longer-term you will quickly see what I'm talking about. I'll give figures for Hong Kong as that's what I'm familiar with. Language centre work max's out at around HK 300 / hr (and many pay less). An experienced NET can charge at least HK 500 / hr for private lessons.
If we assume 10 hours per week at a language centre that's:
HK 2,000 given up in commission per week
HK 8,000 given up in commission per month
HK 96,000 given up in commission per year
If we assume 15 hours per week at a language centre that's:
HK 3,000 given up in commission per week
HK 12,000 given up in commission per month
HK 144,000 given up in commission per year
As you can see, it just doesn't make sense to give up that much income to commission unless you don't have a choice.
Regarding your comments about capital outlay, many tutors teach from home. So there's no big payments to be made for rental, contract and utilities costs etc etc. Materials and resources expenditure pale in comparison to income levels, especially over time (I spent around 1K on new books / materials last month vs 115K income). Marketing can be expensive, but then that's only required to build up your initial student base. Once that's done, word-of-mouth referrals take over. I myself haven't had any marketing costs for years. |
Actually The BC pays 435 HK an hour for part timers with no expense on marketing or books, blocks of classes, no hanging around trying to build up a client base or dealing with cancellations etc... but whatever works for you. Also IMO classes are a much nicer environment for teaching. One to ones are much duller and usually require more detailed planning |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| bograt wrote: |
Actually The BC pays 435 HK an hour for part timers with no expense on marketing or books, blocks of classes, no hanging around trying to build up a client base or dealing with cancellations etc... but whatever works for you. Also IMO classes are a much nicer environment for teaching. One to ones are much duller and usually require more detailed planning |
I think we can agree that the British Council is not typical of most normal language centres. It represents close to the peak of what one can expect when dealing with language centre work. There was a poll recently on one of the HK teaching forums on language centre pay, the vast majority of those polled reported hourly rates between HK 200 - 300.
With regards to lesson cancellations etc etc, I think I've covered that previously. For a professional tutor, these issues can be handled.
Classes a nicer environment for teaching? Depends what you are comparing it against. I don't think there's any classroom that is nicer than my own dedicated teaching room. I have all my own resources on hand, state of the art IT equipment, climate control with a good air filter system, a nice espresso machine etc etc. If you are talking about tutoring in someone's living room, or a noisy coffee shop, then maybe.
1-1's being duller and requiring more detailed planning? I call rubbish on this one. I couldn't disagree more. Then again, a large part of this is down to what you are used to. |
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joe30
Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 112
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Jmbf wrote: |
Obviously we are not going to see eye to eye on this but I'll continue to address your points as this conversation is quite interesting.
Capital: I thought I'd addressed this already. What capital is required? We are not talking about setting up a formal language centre with all its associated costs. We are talking about tutoring in homes (yours or the students). There is a plethora of free materials available online which can be referenced / printed out. Grammar books / worksheets are cheap. You can buy simple English games / puzzles cheaply in most bookstores or online. Your upfront capital costs for private tutoring are very very limited. You can probably budget 100 - 200 RMB and that would be enough to get you started. |
IIRC you mentioned before that you moved to a larger and more expensive area in the centre of town because that's where the student base is - and that tutors who try and run businesses in cheaper areas don't generally do so well. There's a big upfront cost of being forced to live in an up market area
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| Business ability: I don't think you need a lot of business ability to be a good tutor. The skills you need are more organisational in nature. Try to be the best teacher you can, improve your skill set, be professional and often you will be approached directly for work. I know A LOT of tutors, I wouldn't say they have very good business ability, rather the successful ones are simply good teachers, approachable and friendly yet organised. Those are some of the key traits that you need. |
It'd be fair to say many ESL tutors are not good teachers. They're average or poor. Mediocrity or outright poor performance is tolerated a long time in a language centre. If you're running it by yourself your students will soon leave.
Many people are not concerned with improving their skill set and getting good, since they're in this game for the lifestyle of living abroad, not for a love of education. These guys - and make no mistake, there's more of these sorts than the 'I love teaching' type - would be overall much better off in a language centre
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Work Ethic: I don't think that language centre work is significantly more or less intensive than private tutoring but it's down to what you get used to. Planning and preparation time for experienced tutors is very minimal (as has been noted already in this thread). Being able to teach the way you want to, to have control over your schedule and who you teach, without the frustrations that often come with centre work (poor materials, frustrating management, challenging colleagues, random work hours that are out of your control etc etc) is a big relief and needs to be taken into account. |
I'd argue it was significantly more work. For a start, a great many ESL teachers aren't 'experienced' - and or this group, having everything planned for them saves a lot of time. I don't think being able to teach whatever you like is a plus point since its significantly easier to follow someone else's instructions than to invent the instructions yourself.
Poor materials and management can be voted against with your feet. Random work hours can be dealt with by having a backbone and saying 'no, I'm not doing those classes at that time'.
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Let's take 5 students at 300 RMB each as an example. That works out to 1,500 RMB per week. To match that at many language centres you would have to work at least 10 hours per week. Yes, with those 5 hours of private tutoring you may have some commuting and prep time but with organisation and experience those can be managed down to reasonable levels. As your number of students grow, this problem is exacerbated. 10 private students would work out to 3,000 RMB per week or 20 hours in a language centre etc etc. |
At least should be changed to 'at most' since certainly in all major cities the baseline is 200rmb an hour. I'd say the true hourly hit you take is 50% in most cases (for example, 300rmb vs 200rmb). That's the case in Thailand too (700 baht vs 500 baht).
Growing a student base is a big problem as has been noted by many teachers on this thread. It takes time, and time is money. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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"...It'd be fair to say many ESL tutors are not good teachers. They're average or poor. Mediocrity or outright poor performance is tolerated a long time in a language centre. If you're running it by yourself your students will soon leave.
Many people are not concerned with improving their skill set and getting good, since they're in this game for the lifestyle of living abroad, not for a love of education. These guys - and make no mistake, there's more of these sorts than the 'I love teaching' type - would be overall much better off in a language centre..."
Amen. Most of the FTs I've met in China aren't good class room teachers, never mind their inability to tutor. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| 1-1's being duller and requiring more detailed planning? I call rubbish on this one. I couldn't disagree more. Then again, a large part of this is down to what you are used to. |
Have you ever taught adult classes? If so you'd know that you can get them to talk to each other while you just listen and interject when someone says something interesting (if you want) With one to ones you are required to react to everything your student says, no matter how boring/inaccurate/indecipherable etc...You can't tell a one to one student that you haven't been listening to them for the last 5 minutes because what they've been saying has been too boring/unintelligible but in an adult class you can just pretend what those students said didn't happen. I guess either you haven't taught adult classes before or all your adult students have been great company - which seems unlikely. I'd hazard a guess though that the way you blow your own trumpet ad nauseum on here you'll probably claim all your one to one adults are amazing people and a joy to teach so you can probably disregard all I've said and good luck to you. |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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Firstly, I apologise if I've offended anyone. I'm more than happy to defer to the expertise of others in many areas, but with tutoring I do feel that I have significant experience and therefore have something to contribute. I can't just sit back when I see very misleading or inaccurate statements made.
Your argument seems to be based on many assumptions. Unfortunately several of them are wrong. I have taught adult classes, and I have taught many many private adult students over the years. Another assumption seems to be that all adult students want general oral English improvement classes. This is not the case at all in my experience. I have had many adults who have wanted to improve their writing and reading skills, or have wanted to learn very specific vocabulary sets related to their industry. In these lessons, there are always periods of 'downtime' while the student gets on with their work, whether that be a reading exercise, a short writing composition, a grammar worksheet and so on. Even in general oral improvement classes, the lesson plan should include elements of revision and testing. In these oral classes, I will still give my students exercises to do by themselves to ensure understanding. These can take the form of various worksheets, reading samples, listening to audio clips followed by comprehension questions etc etc. I'm usually not hovering over the students shoulder while they do these exercises (there are exceptions of course dictated by the individual student's needs and abilities), so there are always periods of relative 'downtime' even during these lessons.
Yet another assumption is that all private lessons are 1-1. I've had several small group lessons (both with adults and younger learners) where there is potential for student-student conversation.
Private lessons CAN be intensive, but with a well structured lesson plan a tutor doesn't always have to be 100% 'on' for every single minute of every lesson. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Chopin16 wrote: |
| nomad soul wrote: |
| Chopin16 wrote: |
| It's terribly difficult to find privates in Korea. Parents send their kids to the hakwons after school so they take away most of the privates you could get. There are no newspapers with classified to advertise in that I can see either. I only have 3 private students which makes me about $90 a week extra. |
Yet, on the Saudi forum, you revealed that you have an MPhil in English Studies from prestigious Cambridge University. Surely that would be a selling point for private lessons. I suspect parents would be knocking down your door to have their children take private lessons from you since Cambridge graduates are considered well-read and highly-literate.  |
You don't need any selling points to teach in Korea. Come one NS, you know that don't you! For Oman, Saudi universities, British intl schools where the salaries are considerably more too, on the other hand, it is a good selling point and emails are flowing in. LOL I am glad I took the course  |
Hmm... So the MPhil in English Studies you completed several months ago at Cambridge University is a "course."  No wonder you're always trying to find ways to get work in Asia and the Mid East via visas that don't require proper degree authentication.
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Jmbf wrote: |
Firstly, I apologise if I've offended anyone. I'm more than happy to defer to the expertise of others in many areas, but with tutoring I do feel that I have significant experience and therefore have something to contribute. I can't just sit back when I see very misleading or inaccurate statements made.
Your argument seems to be based on many assumptions. Unfortunately several of them are wrong. I have taught adult classes, and I have taught many many private adult students over the years. Another assumption seems to be that all adult students want general oral English improvement classes. This is not the case at all in my experience. I have had many adults who have wanted to improve their writing and reading skills, or have wanted to learn very specific vocabulary sets related to their industry. In these lessons, there are always periods of 'downtime' while the student gets on with their work, whether that be a reading exercise, a short writing composition, a grammar worksheet and so on. Even in general oral improvement classes, the lesson plan should include elements of revision and testing. In these oral classes, I will still give my students exercises to do by themselves to ensure understanding. These can take the form of various worksheets, reading samples, listening to audio clips followed by comprehension questions etc etc. I'm usually not hovering over the students shoulder while they do these exercises (there are exceptions of course dictated by the individual student's needs and abilities), so there are always periods of relative 'downtime' even during these lessons.
Yet another assumption is that all private lessons are 1-1. I've had several small group lessons (both with adults and younger learners) where there is potential for student-student conversation.
Private lessons CAN be intensive, but with a well structured lesson plan a tutor doesn't always have to be 100% 'on' for every single minute of every lesson. |
Yeah, yeah look we've all done classes and one to one teaching and I've never met a teacher yet who preferred one to one teaching You haven't offended anyone, not me anyway, you just go on about yourself and private tutoring a lot in a vaguely smug kind of way. |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| bograt wrote: |
Yeah, yeah look we've all done classes and one to one teaching and I've never met a teacher yet who preferred one to one teaching |
Well now you can add 1 to that list 
| bograt wrote: |
| You haven't offended anyone, not me anyway, you just go on about yourself and private tutoring a lot in a vaguely smug kind of way. |
Well it is a thread about private tutoring. I thought I'd try and shed some light on some of its positive aspects to counter some of the oft-quoted negative stuff. |
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bograt
Joined: 12 Nov 2014
Posts: 331
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Well it is a thread about private tutoring. |
Yes, in mainland China. That's why it wasn't posted on the Hong Kong forum |
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Jmbf
Joined: 29 Jun 2014
Posts: 663
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| bograt wrote: |
| Yes, in mainland China. That's why it wasn't posted on the Hong Kong forum |
There are many parallels between Hong Kong and the Tier 1 cities in China. I know of others doing what I do in China. Minor differences aside, the general principles are the same. Moreover, my comments about tutoring in general are still valid, wherever you may choose to work. |
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siologen
Joined: 25 Oct 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:59 pm Post subject: re: tutoring in HK? |
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| Tutoring in HK can be easily picked up, but it is only suitable for a single western bloke IMHO. You can still make more than you could on mainland china though, and be in HK, if you do it right. I suspect personal drive is behind it more than anything else. And yes, there are people without bonafide degrees cashing in, some living in nice areas. It will annoy the academic crowd in the mainland living in apartments with toxic paint and polluted air, but it is true. |
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twowheel
Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Posts: 753
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| Jmbf wrote: |
| Many good points noted above. I totally agree that establishing your reputation comes FIRST and that takes time. Running around aimlessly taking on private students without an overall game plan is what leads to many of the problems mentioned earlier in this thread. |
Agreed.
twowheel |
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twowheel
Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Posts: 753
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:10 am Post subject: Re: re: tutoring in HK? |
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| siologen wrote: |
| Tutoring in HK can be easily picked up, but it is only suitable for a single western bloke IMHO. You can still make more than you could on mainland china though, and be in HK, if you do it right. I suspect personal drive is behind it more than anything else. And yes, there are people without bonafide degrees cashing in, some living in nice areas. It will annoy the academic crowd in the mainland living in apartments with toxic paint and polluted air, but it is true. |
 
I feel I am one of those pseudo-academic types on the fringe of the academic crowd on the mainland, but I felt no dig at me; after all, it is fun to annoy that crowd. I thought that last comment was hilarious. They take themselves way too seriously.
I find your quote to be plausible sislogen, especially the part that I bolded. Many thanks for posting.
I do feel I should try my hand at living in Hong Kong someday (apply for NET scheme, apply for PhD programs at HK universities?).
Good to hear that Hong Kong is still...good.
twowheel |
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