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sharona
Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 21
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Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:00 am Post subject: China, Malaysia or Indonesia?? - non-degree holder |
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I am 53 year old New Zealander, CELTA certified but no university qualifications.
I taught English in China for 6 months approx five years ago (but don't know if I still have the paperwork to prove that).
Now I'm keen to teach & travel again and unsure whether to return to China or try Indonesia or Malaysia instead. So just scoping things out at this stage.
I need a reasonable paying job as I need to send about $100 US home per month.
I wasn't that keen on China (I think I'm more a SE Asia kind of person) but I found a good school which made all the difference.
What do people recommend? I'd appreciate it if you could keep your suggestions positive and constructive....thanks
ps - I don't want to lost all credibility at this early stage, but I am a rather phobic towards large spiders. How many of those could I expect to see in these countries? I suspect a lot, am I right? |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Posts: 11454 Location: The real world
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Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Indonesia requires at minimum a bachelor's degree. |
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bradleycooper
Joined: 12 Apr 2013 Posts: 310
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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Indonesia now requires not only a degree but a degree in an English-related subject. Frankly, I doubt yours will be a very appealing CV to most employers in Indonesia these days. They can't even get most degree-holders through. Word of mouth is that it is hard to get a job there without a degree now- unless you know the right people. But presumably you don't?
Unfortunately, the same now applies for China. They require a degree, a TEFL certificate, 2 years' work experience and a criminal record check. The laws were tightened as of late 2013.
Look at Thailand and degrees are also officially required. However, according to rumour, you could probably get a job in Isaan (the arid North-East of Thailand) if you just turned up in somewhere like Nong Khai or Khon Kaen and went around to the academies there with your TEFL certificate. This mightn't seem as glamorous as living in Bangkok but costs are much cheaper. If you got a job paying 30,000 baht in Roi Et, Khon Kaen, Ubon Ratchathani or Nong Khai etc. that might be a reasonable option. Certainly better than Cambodia, where you will struggle to earn enough to pay your rent and eat noodles at first. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Posts: 11454 Location: The real world
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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:06 am Post subject: |
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bradleycooper wrote: |
Look at Thailand and degrees are also officially required. However, according to rumour, you could probably get a job in Isaan (the arid North-East of Thailand) if you just turned up in somewhere like Nong Khai or Khon Kaen and went around to the academies there with your TEFL certificate. |
Don't count on rumors. The OP risks deportation by working illegally in Thailand. Also see, "CELTA, three years experience but no degree - chances?" (http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=107760) in addition to the sticky on the Thailand forum. |
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Tudor
Joined: 21 Aug 2009 Posts: 339
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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:06 am Post subject: |
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There's also the issue of age. Indonesia - and I believe Thailand - has an upper age limit of 55 for the issuance of work permits so the OP would have to get their skates on.
There are sometimes ways around these things in Indonesia if a potential employee ticks some of the other boxes, but if they don't then no employer is going to waste their time and money trying to get a work visa for someone who's too old, has no degree, no teaching cert and no experience.
Of course, there's plenty of "under-the-table" work available but, as NS mentions above, that comes with its fair share of risk. |
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bradleycooper
Joined: 12 Apr 2013 Posts: 310
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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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The days of TEFL jobs in Asia for people without degrees are clearly on the wane. They will accept you in Phnom Penh without a degree at some places but you will get $8-$10 an hour and a decent apartment costs $250 a month. Then there is the fact that power prices are very high, so factor in another $50 for that. After tax, you will therefore need to work 40 hours to just pay rent and power and that is probably 2 weeks working at most places. Clearly, you won't have much money after you've paid transport costs- and there is literally no public transport in the whole city, believe it or not- and paid for food. For people with degrees you will feel sorry for the miserable sods eking out this sort of life.
In short, unless you have a degree I am not aware of anywhere in Asia that has decent schools which will hire you. Therefore, my best suggestion is to get online clients and then live somewhere in S.E.Asia with a reasonable speed Internet connection. This can be lucrative if you provide a good service. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Posts: 11454 Location: The real world
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Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Language schools in Mongolia may not require a degree. |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014 Posts: 366
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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bradleycooper wrote: |
Indonesia now requires not only a degree but a degree in an English-related subject. Frankly, I doubt yours will be a very appealing CV to most employers in Indonesia these days. They can't even get most degree-holders through. Word of mouth is that it is hard to get a job there without a degree now- unless you know the right people. But presumably you don't? |
It is not about who the prospective employee knows, but rather who the prospective employer knows, or has for a "friend" in which office.
Quote: |
Unfortunately, the same now applies for China. They require a degree, a TEFL certificate, 2 years' work experience and a criminal record check. The laws were tightened as of late 2013. |
China does not (up to the present day) have a national governmental requirement for a TEFL certificate, to the best of my knowledge, nor do all provinces in the PRC carry such a requirement (though some may). Can you provide a link to documentation of the relevant regulation or law, or other clear information / cite to back up your statement? |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014 Posts: 366
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Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Tudor wrote: |
There's also the issue of age. Indonesia - and I believe Thailand - has an upper age limit of 55 for the issuance of work permits |
A recent post by a well-informed member of another site has cited recent changes in the minimum age requirements as: raised from 25 to 28 (presumably for all foreign teachers) and lists the max age as 60.
I have heard elsewhere that the "60" number applies only to University lecturer or dosen positions, and the max age for all others is 55, but I am not entirely yakin on the factuality of this (too bad, because it will be relevant for me personally in about six more years). |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011 Posts: 1652
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Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:31 am Post subject: |
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nomad soul wrote: |
Don't count on rumors. The OP risks deportation by working illegally in Thailand. |
Has never happened that I know of. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010 Posts: 11454 Location: The real world
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Tudor
Joined: 21 Aug 2009 Posts: 339
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Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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mysterytrain wrote: |
Tudor wrote: |
There's also the issue of age. Indonesia - and I believe Thailand - has an upper age limit of 55 for the issuance of work permits |
A recent post by a well-informed member of another site has cited recent changes in the minimum age requirements as: raised from 25 to 28 (presumably for all foreign teachers) and lists the max age as 60.
I have heard elsewhere that the "60" number applies only to University lecturer or dosen positions, and the max age for all others is 55, but I am not entirely yakin on the factuality of this (too bad, because it will be relevant for me personally in about six more years). |
Yes, I saw the post to which you refer after I posted this. It is - as usual - as clear as mud what is and what isn't required. |
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bradleycooper
Joined: 12 Apr 2013 Posts: 310
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Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:15 am Post subject: |
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mysterytrain wrote: |
bradleycooper wrote: |
Indonesia now requires not only a degree but a degree in an English-related subject. Frankly, I doubt yours will be a very appealing CV to most employers in Indonesia these days. They can't even get most degree-holders through. Word of mouth is that it is hard to get a job there without a degree now- unless you know the right people. But presumably you don't? |
It is not about who the prospective employee knows, but rather who the prospective employer knows, or has for a "friend" in which office. |
Actually, it could be about who the prospective employee knows in many cases. For example, I had a lot of experience with a certain expat in Jakarta who was quite close with one of the recruiters at a well-known chain of National Plus schools. This recruiter frequently did favours for said expat by giving jobs to his drinking buddies at this National Plus school, even though some of them had no more qualifications than a CELTA certificate.
Therefore, if we are going to split hairs and get finnicky, it depends both on who the prospective employee knows (in existing school chains) and who the prospective employer knows in government offices. Having a good social network and contacts within Jakarta is very valuable for employees, as it allows them to know which schools may get able to get around governmental regulations.
As for the China, it is true that there is some variation at the provinicial level. I know of Pakistani and Ghanaian English teachers, for example, who wouldn't get jobs in major Chinese cities but have got work visas in third-tier cities in the interior. But as of 2013 the requirements have certainly tightened, with criminal record checks and 2 years' experience requirements being required in addition to a degree. (And the OP asked about where she could work without a degree). Could you possibly get a job without some of this at lower-paying schools in undesirable parts of China? I have no doubt. There is always wiggle room in Asia.
In the most recent thread on Dave's (on the topic of how to get a Z-Visa) is the following post, which tees with my experience. (I am currently working in China and interviewed at 3 schools before deciding on one).
Capt Lugwash wrote:
This seems to be an emotive subject so I will try to keep it as low key as possible.
What do the forum members believe are the legal (emphasis on legal) requirements for obtaining a Z visa and subsequent FEC and RP for teaching in China?
Please do not troll this thread as I am genuinely interested.
"We keep seeing the same question over and over because there is no one answer. China is a huge country and different areas have different regulations (or interpretation of regulations).
Your question needs to be changed a little, how about "What are the minimum requirements I need to have to get almost any job in China?"
The answer to that question is a bachelor degree, 2 years of post graduate work (teaching) experience, and some sort of TEFL/CELTA certificate.
If you have all 3 of the above you'll have very little problems getting pretty much any job you want (outside of international schools). Not all schools require the above, but any decent place does." |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014 Posts: 366
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Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:55 am Post subject: |
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bradleycooper wrote: |
As for the China, it is true that there is some variation at the provinicial level. I know of Pakistani and Ghanaian English teachers, for example, who wouldn't get jobs in major Chinese cities but have got work visas in third-tier cities in the interior. But as of 2013 the requirements have certainly tightened, with criminal record checks and 2 years' experience requirements being required in addition to a degree. (And the OP asked about where she could work without a degree). Could you possibly get a job without some of this at lower-paying schools in undesirable parts of China? I have no doubt. There is always wiggle room in Asia. |
I'm aware that governmental requirements for FT's in China have been adjusted in the ways that you mention here (BA or BS degree, 2 years' experience, criminal record check). Note that you didn't mention TEFL certification there, and it's because the Chinese government has not made TEFL certification a nationwide requirement for Foreign Teachers to get a "Z" visa, residence permit and Foreign Expert License.
When one says, as you did in your previous post, "'they' require x, y, and z", with the "they" clearly referring to "China", and then throws in "TEFL Certificate" along with others which actually ARE required by the government, it seems pretty clear you mean to refer to "they" or "China" as the government and its requirements.
Quote: |
In the most recent thread on Dave's (on the topic of how to get a Z-Visa) is the following post, which tees with my experience. (I am currently working in China and interviewed at 3 schools before deciding on one).
Capt Lugwash wrote:
This seems to be an emotive subject so I will try to keep it as low key as possible.
What do the forum members believe are the legal (emphasis on legal) requirements for obtaining a Z visa and subsequent FEC and RP for teaching in China?
Please do not troll this thread as I am genuinely interested.
"We keep seeing the same question over and over because there is no one answer. China is a huge country and different areas have different regulations (or interpretation of regulations).
Your question needs to be changed a little, how about "What are the minimum requirements I need to have to get almost any job in China?"
The answer to that question is a bachelor degree, 2 years of post graduate work (teaching) experience, and some sort of TEFL/CELTA certificate.
If you have all 3 of the above you'll have very little problems getting pretty much any job you want (outside of international schools). Not all schools require the above, but any decent place does." |
Let's stick with the Captain's original question: what are the LEGAL (ie, stated government) requirements for obtaining Z visa, FEC and residence permit?
And again, TEFL certification is not among the correct answers.
I would certainly argue that, while a majority of employers in China certainly do require a TEFL certificate, to say that one is required "to get almost any job in China" is definitely inaccurate.
And It doesn't matter if 90% of employers in China actually do require a TEFL certificate (although I'm pretty sure the number who insist on one is less than that). Your statement is still misleading. That's worth noting, I think, when you are telling readers on this forum what "they" require as factual information. |
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mysterytrain
Joined: 23 Mar 2014 Posts: 366
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Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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bradleycooper wrote: |
mysterytrain wrote: |
bradleycooper wrote: |
Indonesia now requires not only a degree but a degree in an English-related subject. Frankly, I doubt yours will be a very appealing CV to most employers in Indonesia these days. They can't even get most degree-holders through. Word of mouth is that it is hard to get a job there without a degree now- unless you know the right people. But presumably you don't? |
It is not about who the prospective employee knows, but rather who the prospective employer knows, or has for a "friend" in which office. |
Actually, it could be about who the prospective employee knows in many cases. For example, I had a lot of experience with a certain expat in Jakarta who was quite close with one of the recruiters at a well-known chain of National Plus schools. This recruiter frequently did favours for said expat by giving jobs to his drinking buddies at this National Plus school, even though some of them had no more qualifications than a CELTA certificate.
Therefore, if we are going to split hairs and get finnicky, it depends both on who the prospective employee knows (in existing school chains) and who the prospective employer knows in government offices. Having a good social network and contacts within Jakarta is very valuable for employees, as it allows them to know which schools may get able to get around governmental regulations. |
It's "finicky" (one 'n'). I'll take your point on this one, though I haven't personally had to "know" anyone - or drink with anyone - to get a job in Indonesia, teaching in a school formerly known as "National Plus". |
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