Job Discussion Forums

[gerard]

What is wrong with these sentences?? By the way they were written by a very good student.

1) When I was entering into a dark room I felt very nervous.
2) When I am sitting on the soft bed, I feel very comfortable.

I think the problem with 1 is the specific "a dark room." Many other fragments could be inserted here and the sentence would be fine.

2nd May be fine Ahhh Chinglish at it;s best

[Sherri]

It depends on what exactly the student is trying to say. Here are some possibilities--I am sure there are more:

1) When I was entering into a dark room I felt very nervous.

to

When(ever) I enter a dark room I feel nervous.
or
When I entered the dark room, I felt nervous.

2) When I am sitting on the soft bed, I feel very comfortable.

When(ever) I sit on a soft bed, I feel very comfortable.
or
When I sat on the soft bed, I felt comfortable.

Ask the student what he/she meant exactly. Were these sentences written with any context, or were they in isolation? Why were the students writing sentences like these? Was it to practice a grammar point? If so what was it?

[Kereru]

If #1 is part of a narrative & the tense is ok, I'd have a problem with "entering into" - some redundancy there, which I'm seeing a lot of in the early writing of my EAP students. (A tendency to embellish, using every possible adverbial conjunction & preposition they've learned.

BTW as a non English trained teacher (a former science teacher) I frequently encounter constructions that I know are wrong but I can't explain why!!

[johnslat]

Dear Kereru,
There is redundancy in that sentence. You can enter into an an agreement but you enter a room.
See meanings 2, 3 and 5 ( intransitive senses ) and 4 and 10 ( transitive senses ) for some examples

Main Entry: en�ter
Pronunciation: 'en-t&r
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): en�tered; en�ter�ing /'en-t(&-)ri[ng]/
Etymology: Middle English entren, from Old French entrer, from Latin intrare, from intra within; akin to Latin inter between -- more at INTER-
Date: 13th century
intransitive senses
1 : to go or come in
2 : to come or gain admission into a group : JOIN -- often used with into
3 a : to make a beginning <entering upon a career> b : to begin to consider a subject -- usually used with into or upon
4 : to go upon land for the purpose of taking possession
5 : to play a part : be a factor <other considerations enter when money is involved>
transitive senses
1 : to come or go into <enter a room>
2 : INSCRIBE, REGISTER <enter the names of qualified voters>
3 : to cause to be received or admitted <enter a child at a school>
4 : to put in : INSERT <enter the new data into the computer>
5 a : to make a beginning in <enter politics> b : to go into (a particular period of time) <enter middle age>
6 : to become a member of or an active participant in <enter the university> <enter a race>
7 : to make report of (a ship or its cargo) to customs authorities
8 : to place in proper form before a court of law or upon record <enter a writ>
9 : to go into or upon and take actual possession of (as land)
10 : to put formally on record <entering a complaint>
- en�ter�able /'en-t(&-)r&-b&l/ adjective
- enter into 1 : to make oneself a party to or in <enter into an agreement> 2 : to form or be part of <your prejudices shouldn't enter into it> 3 : to participate or share in <enter into the spirit of the occasion>
- enter the lists : to engage in a fight or struggle.

Probably the biggest problem in English - in every subject area - for learners is that words have so many different meanings in different contexts. Context is of prime importance.
Regards,
John

[Capergirl]

Like the others here, I immediately noticed the redundancy in sentence #1: "entered into". One enters a room, one does not enter "into" a room. I also have a problem with "When I was entering a dark room, I felt very nervous." In truth, I'm going to have to look this up to find out what the exact rule is, if any, but on gut instinct alone, I would change that to either of the following: 1. "As I was entering a (or the) dark room, I began to feel nervous."; 2. "As I entered the dark room, I felt nervous."

[Capergirl]

Almost forgot about sentence number 2. I would change "When I am sitting on the soft bed, I feel comfortable." to "When I sit on the soft bed, I feel comfortable." Again, I will have to look it up.

[johnslat]

Dear Capergirl,
Regarding that 2nd sentence, I think again it all depends on the context. I don't see anything wrong with the sentence itself ( grammar or syntax ) that the right context wouldn't explain. If, for example, someone is reminiscing about a specific bed, then " When I am sitting . . " would be fine. Kind of like saying, " When I'm posting about grammar on Dave's, I feel ridiculous ".
Regards,
John

[Sherri]

I agree with John. Actually both sentences require some context before we can comment. We don't know what the student is trying to say.

[gerard]

Thank you 3 for the help...Sherri I'm afraid there is no context but I know what you mean. I gave a homework assignment : Illustrate the meaning of these words by using them in a sentence. (Such as comfortable , anxious etc.) Maybe it was not a fair question on my part. Anyway I think they have a tendency to try to impress and start using overly complex sentences and get themselves in trouble...

Awkward yes but I am still not sure if these sentences are unacceptable.

[Capergirl]

@John and Sherri: I do think you are right. There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with the second sentence, other than the fact that I like the sentence with "sit" better.

I still find the first sentence awkward, but haven't yet found a rule that illustrates whether it is grammatically correct or incorrect. As for the phrase "entering into", I was thinking about it and although it is clearly redundant in the context of the first sentence (entering a room), we do use that phrase in other contexts and it is considered perfectly good English--e.g. to enter into a contract or agreement.

[xnihil]

I agree with most of what everyone has said up to now.

I have this addition/suggestion:

"When I was entering a dark room" could also be "While I was entering the dark room, I felt nervous."

I typically use when for short actions (ie, non-continuous ones)

[johnslat]

Dear xnihil,
Now you've got ME confused. You wrote -

" 'When I was entering a dark room' could also be 'While I was entering the dark room, I felt nervous.'

I typically use when for short actions (ie non-continuous ones) "

But " entering a room " is a very short action, taking only a second or two at most. So why would you suggest using " While "? It might be better just to elide the clause into a phrase and write -

" When entering the dark room, I felt nervous. "

But anyway, it's not really length of the action that matters in using the past continuous/simple past; what makes the action continuous is that it is " interrupted " by a simple past action or a past time. So -

When I was leaving my house, the phone rang.

or

While I was leaving my house, the phone rang.

are both just fine. The main difference is that you can " move the when " but not the " while ". So


" I was leaving my house when the phone rang " is fine, but not, of course
" I was leaving my house while the phone rang. "

Regards,
John

[xnihil]

John,

I didn't realize you were so easy to confuse

[Sherri]

Gerard
If you want to correct these sentences, you will have to go to the student and ask him/her what exactly he/she was trying to say. You can't second guess!

What I think is more important here is the assignment and what you learned as a teacher about it. The student did what you said, tried to write some sentences to show the meaning of "anxious" and "comfortable". That was the aim of the homework--not the actual grammar of the sentence. It seems to me that the student does understand the meanings of these words--at least in these usages--and that was the assignment after all.

I really don't think the sentences are overly complex, but of course this does depend on the level of the student. It does show that students tend to do well at grammar exercises, but when they have use the grammar to communicate, mistakes happen. That is OK and that is how they learn.

As for the assignment itself, it probably would have been better if you asked the students to fill in blanks if you really wanted to control how well they understood the meanings of these words without the added complication of composition. You could have asked them to write a short story using the words or a letter to a friend, that way you would have some context. Live and learn.

[johnslat]

Dear xnihil,
Oh heck - it's easy to confuse me. In fact, the older I get the confuseder I become. But having gone to that web site, I see nothing to justify your assertion that:

" I was leaving my house when the phone rang " is fine, but not, of course
" I was leaving my house while the phone rang. "

I would argue that both sentences are correct, but have differen t meanings.

The first implies that I was interupted and answered the phone.

The second implies that as I was leaving, the phone was ringing (but I continued to leave). "


" While ", owing to its meaning of " duration " demands the continuous/progressive tenses ( except, of course, in the case of noncontinuous/progressive verbs - e.g. While I was in the library yesterday, someone stole my bicycle ). Now, " when " can mean either
" while " or " after "

( when as while ) " When I was taking a shower the phone rang
or I was taking a shower when the phone rang. "
To say/write - " While the phone rang, I took a shower " or " The phone rang while I took a shower " or " While the phone rang, I was taking a shower " would all convey a meaning that, although I suppose it's possible ( heck, anything's possible ), would certainly be exceedingly odd behavior.

( when as after ) " When he died, they buried him. "
Here the " when " has a meaning synonymous to " after ", where one action happens first, and then ( separated in time ) a second action happens later - and, often, the first action causes the second.

I await your response. And, while I'm waiting, I'll read some more posts.
Regards,
John