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Chinese, Japanese, and Korean writing

 
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Debalky



Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 79
Location: hell on earth

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:14 pm    Post subject: Chinese, Japanese, and Korean writing Reply with quote

Can someone tell me why Japanese and Chinese writing characters looks so similar, yet Korean writing looks strangely different?
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Wolf



Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 1245
Location: Middle Earth

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because Japanese writing is Chinese writing.

Many years ago, the Japanese borrowed the Chinese language for use at court. Over time they began to use the Chinese writing system to write in their own langauge (for which they had no written form.) The two Kana scripts are derived from Hanzi/Kanji (as Chinese characters are called).

In Korea they used to use the same (Chinese) system. I've talked to Koreans who tell me that over the past few decades Chinese characters have fallen out of favor. The Koreans have a script known as Hangul (um . . . that's what they call it in Japan.) It was invented by this famous Korean guy - and that's what gets used by and large these days.

In a nutshell.
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naturegirl321



Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chinese and Japanese writing evolved over hundreds of years. Korean writing is relatively new and was made scientifically. There are three parts to each character, one is where your tongue is placed in your mouth, sorry, but I don't know what the other two are.
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cabbagehead



Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 46
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry.. .this is job related? Wink

Actually, Korea still uses Chinese characters although I think they are phasing them out in favour of more Hangul. Gordon perhaps you know more about this...

As for Japan, it needed a writing system about a thousand years ago, borrowed China's and subsequently modified it. To someone familiar with Japanese writing, Chinese does not actually look that similar. Chinese characters often look more complicated to me than Japanese ones.

Also, Japanese characters are interspersed with hiragana, a separate script that evolved from the original Chinese ones and is used to mostly indicate grammatical particles and verb endings among other things.
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Debalky



Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 79
Location: hell on earth

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you gentlemen,
very nice, and prompt. Sorry about putting this on the job related forum wasn't paying attention.
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Wolf



Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 1245
Location: Middle Earth

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cabbagehead wrote:
Sorry.. .this is job related? Wink

As for Japan, it needed a writing system about a thousand years ago, borrowed China's and subsequently modified it. To someone familiar with Japanese writing, Chinese does not actually look that similar. Chinese characters often look more complicated to me than Japanese ones.


I'm not making this up! Razz I've spent the past seven months partially literate because I read Japanese. It's been proven time and time again that my knowedge of Chinese characters is either a) on the money or b) close.

Just today, I nearly floored my class by knowing how to write the Chinese word for "angel." It's identical to the written word for "angel" in Japanese.

Chinese looks more complicated because they only use Chinese characters. In Japan, Chinese characters are used for word stems. Grammar particles, simple words, borrowed words, and declentional endings are written in kana, which is simpler to write.

Also, in 1956 China altered/simplified the Characters here, reducing stroke orders. That's why there are differences between PRC Chinese characters and Taiwan/Hong Kong/Singapore(/Japan/Korea.) Give a younger person something written from those places, and it'll be harder for them to read.

Yet there is a system to the simplification, and if you know the old characters, it's pretty easy to learn the new ones.

A page of Chinese text and a page of Japanese text are certainly not identical. Easy to tell apart. But word by word there are similarities. Charater by character it's obvious it's variations on the same theme.
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Roger



Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you travel in Korea you will notice that place-names are in Chinese characters only!
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cabbagehead



Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 46
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolf, yeah you're right. I didn't express myself very clearly

What I meant was that with experience you can tell the two languages apart whereas a newby would think they both look like bundles of spaghetti (well that's what they looked like to me six years ago!)

I'm kind of curious to see what my Japanese skills would do for me travelling in China or Taiwan actually. Haven't made it past Taipei airport yet though. Good to hear of your experience.
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Gordon



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Korean woman in Japan told me that it took her 2 hours to learn Hiragana and Katakana (2 of the 3 Japanese alphabets). Shocked

Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Seth



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: in exile

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now you're getting into the weirdness that is East Asian language supremacy. China, Japan, and Korea each think their language is the most difficult, scientific, beautiful, etc. Koreans and Japanese, mostly, Chinese to a lesser extent. Koreans will often say their language is the most 'scientific' and only they can learn it because of their evolved brains, and I've heard that Japanese think about the same thing. They also think Westerners' brains are too small to learn their languages.

So for a Korean to say she learned hiragana and katakana in 2 hours isn't surprizing. I'm sure she didn't, she's just asserting her language supremacy to save some face. I've also heard of Koreans saying Chinese characters came from Korea, not the other way around, which is also obviously false.
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kimo



Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 668

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolf said:

Quote:
I'm not making this up! I've spent the past seven months partially literate because I read Japanese. It's been proven time and time again that my knowedge of Chinese characters is either a) on the money or b) close.

Just today, I nearly floored my class by knowing how to write the Chinese word for "angel." It's identical to the written word for "angel" in Japanese.


Been there, done that!

For the gent who was curious about his Japanese skills, I think by now you have deduced that if you can read Japanese it will indeed be helpful while traveling in a land where Chinese characters are used - simplified or traditional. In Korea these days it seems they use the more modern Hangul phonetic style mentioned. But if you only speak Japanese it probaby will not be very helpful in communicating - except with those old people in Taiwan and especially Korea who harbor great animosity to Japan for its colonial past. In Korea, I did find a few merchants and businessmen who spoke Japanese as they do learn it quickly.

One note - in Japanese and Korean (I heard) a great number of words have come directly into the languages from Chinese dialects. If written in roman letters it is possible to see cross connections from one language to the next. Gold = J) kin, C) jin, K) kim, for example.

My take on difficulty from easiest to most difficult for characters is 1) Mainland simplified hanzi 2) Japanese kanji 3) Traditional Chinese hanzi used in Hong Kong and Taiwan 4) Korean - my brain is too small, can't read a one.
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Wolf



Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 1245
Location: Middle Earth

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kimo wrote:
Wolf said:

But if you only speak Japanese it probaby will not be very helpful in communicating - except with those old people in Taiwan and especially Korea who harbor great animosity to Japan for its colonial past. In Korea, I did find a few merchants and businessmen who spoke Japanese as they do learn it quickly.


That's certainly true. Speaking is very different from writing.

A lot of words in Japanese are "Chinese" - but the pronunciation has been modified. "Kung fu" is "Ken po" in Japanese, for example, and "Shao Lin" is "Shou Rin." Chinese "Xainsheung" is "Sensei" in Japanese. That, plus the different grammar rules (Chinese is SVO, Japanese SOV) means that a Japanese speaker is unlikely to understand anything he hears spoken in China, and vice versa.
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