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chinasyndrome
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: In the clutches of the Red Dragon. Erm...China
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 Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:35 am Post subject: The Commercialisation of Education |
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This thread came about from another over in the China (Job Related) Forum, which may be worth reading in full to see how this topic developed.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/job/viewtopic.php?t=4953&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Whenever the issue of profit is raised in the same sentence as education, plenty of hot debate follows.
What say you? Is there are middle ground and if so, where might it be? |
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AlexW
Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 17
Location: Sussex, UK
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Middle ground? I doubt it.
The commodification of education is part and parcel of the Commodification Of Everything (TM) so popular these days. Which of the seriously influential changes in the ESL industry in the last 15 years were down to anything other than packaging?
I work for an FE College in the UK. But such is its obsession with merging with every other similar institution in the area, that 20 years down the line when I'm rounding off the career with a sinecure in the former Vladivostok Institute of Tractor Maintenance, I bet I'll be getting the paychecks from the same people.
Al |
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struelle
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 2372
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:55 am Post subject: Re: The Commercialisation of Education |
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| Quote: |
Whenever the issue of profit is raised in the same sentence as education, plenty of hot debate follows.
What say you? Is there are middle ground and if so, where might it be? |
In theory there probably is middle ground, but such an issue is controversial by nature, so it arouses passions. In practice middle ground on education vs. profit is hard to find.
I tend to take sides with the education / academic perspective. Profit is secondary. What I find most disturbing with the commercialization of education isn't the money factor specificaly. But it's the high and rapid rate of change that the commercial educational paradigm is sweeping over the world, as we live in increasingly competitive times.
Steve |
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denise
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 3419
Location: finally home-ish
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 11:20 am Post subject: |
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I apologize in advance for my lack of eloquence, but this is an issue that pisses me off so much that I am only capable of an emotional response, not a logical/rational one.
I hate, abhor, loathe it when educational decisions are made by people with no grounding and no interest in education. I do see a clear divide between bureaucracy/businesspeople and educators. In my humble yet firm opinion, if bureaucrats do not understand education/learning/languages , they have no more right to make educational decisions than do, say,... (hmm, which occupation can I choose without offending anyone?!?!? OK, choose your own completely-unrelated-to-education occupation.)
d |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 11:23 am Post subject: commodity |
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| Everything is a commodity. That is where we have been going since the development of capitalsim. If in doubt go back to Charlie Marx. It is all there ! |
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Wolf
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 1245
Location: Middle Earth
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 11:47 am Post subject: Re: commodity |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| Everything is a commodity. That is where we have been going since the development of capitalsim. If in doubt go back to Charlie Marx. It is all there ! |
I think Groucho might be more appropriate here.
Outdated philosophies that hinder second langauge aquisition is one thing. But the sadly monstrosities of, say, the Korean Hogwan system or the way that it seems some/many private schools in China and Japan are real.
I don't know - not being a DoS or a school owner or anyone who's allowed to see the books - but isn't it possible to run a private EFL school with a fair standard of education and teachers while still turning a profit? Does it really pay dividends to screw over your teachers? Is it really necessary to bend the truth or even out and out lie to your students (I held a NOVA ad for potential new students in my hands that had a lie printed on it. Not an equiviation or an exaggeration. A lie. A big one. Sadly I threw it away when I moved from that country.)
This doesn't only apply to EFL. But I'm not in the mood for adressing that right now. |
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Corey
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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To Alex I would say, if the private schools didn't make a profit you wouldn't have a job. I would add most schools probably don't make as much money as you think. Remember this is the owners job as well.
There is a reason why at many of the smaller schools the owner also teaches.
It is possible to turn a profit and treat people right, but IMO it requires skills that most people don't have. Most teachers do not understand anything about finance and managers don't understand teaching. |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| denise wrote: |
I apologize in advance for my lack of eloquence, but this is an issue that pisses me off so much that I am only capable of an emotional response, not a logical/rational one.
I hate, abhor, loathe it when educational decisions are made by people with no grounding and no interest in education. I do see a clear divide between bureaucracy/businesspeople and educators. In my humble yet firm opinion, if bureaucrats do not understand education/learning/languages , they have no more right to make educational decisions than do, say,... (hmm, which occupation can I choose without offending anyone?!?!? OK, choose your own completely-unrelated-to-education occupation.)
d |
Then open your own school and do it your way. I guess reality bites, no?  |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Corey wrote: |
To Alex I would say, if the private schools didn't make a profit you wouldn't have a job. I would add most schools probably don't make as much money as you think. Remember this is the owners job as well.
There is a reason why at many of the smaller schools the owner also teaches.
It is possible to turn a profit and treat people right, but IMO it requires skills that most people don't have. Most teachers do not understand anything about finance and managers don't understand teaching. |
Yup. Very accurate perceptions.
Although many times the problems are caused by teachers and / or management, sometimes the market demands to be lied to. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Schools operate in a politicised environment. Education always is under some national diktats. Why else does every country have its own history lessons?
This is no less true of teaching a FOREIGN language: chauvinistic reflexes accompany such decisions. Look at the materials used in our schools: produced locally to take special care of local sensitivities.
If you have to take over Chinese students that have been force-fed on their own national intellectual fare they come equipped with attitudinal problems that you can no longer cure. Add to this their parents' mindset. Why do CHinese parents force their kids to study English? Were it not for purely materiall advantages as perceived by adults they would not care to give more of their precious lifetime to studying.
These same parents interfere one hell of a lot in the most diabolical manner with your own teaching agenda. It is "my child..." and "...in China we..."
This defines the local market. Most of us have to submit to very parochial attitudes and market forces that are incompatible with reasonable teaching objectives.
Even if we come with idealistic motives there is no appreciation of that - the market dictates what we have to give, and we want to be remunerated and respected for our service - often we get good remuneration but no respect. If you want both, you must work in your own country! |
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Joe C.
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 993
Location: Witness Protection Program
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
| Even if we come with idealistic motives there is no appreciation of that - the market dictates what we have to give, and we want to be remunerated and respected for our service - often we get good remuneration but no respect. If you want both, you must work in your own country! |
Precisely the reason why many do not / cannot teach in their own country is the much higher standards required of teachers there compared with those required to teach EFL in, say, China.
I mean, take a look around. It's not difficult to find foreign teachers / experts that aren't qualified to even teach themselves how to brush their teeth much less teach students English (or whatever) in their home country.
In many instances, the host country is getting exactly what they've paid for. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 8:41 am Post subject: respect for pedagogues ? |
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In my experience teachers here in the Middle East do get some respect - at least in the institution I am in now, and in most of the other places I have taught in.
I am not sure that teacahers are now treated with any respect in my natve land. The contempt shown to teachers in western societies must be a symptom of those societies' cultural decadence. |
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AlexW
Joined: 02 Aug 2003
Posts: 17
Location: Sussex, UK
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| To Alex I would say, if the private schools didn't make a profit you wouldn't have a job. I would add most schools probably don't make as much money as you think. Remember this is the owners job as well. |
Sorry for appearing to generalise. Actually I don't work in the private schools any more; and when I did - basically as the active foil for a sleeping partner for a number of years in Eastern Europe - I agree that it was hard to balance the quality of educational experience and the economics. What can I say, except that we tried - and, as you correctly point out, we didn't make stackloads of money but a reasonable living.
My beef isn't with that end of the market at all. Where it starts to get silly is not in the small organisations but in the massive agglomerations. In the former, the money from student fees would normally pay teacher, rent, and one hugely dedicated but hugely overworked secretary and finally a relatively small number of owners - who as you say tend to teach as well. The huge concerns have to fund in addition to the above x layers of middle management and some swanky offices in downtown metropolitan districts which do justice to their brand.
It's at that level that things start to get seriously inefficient. First casualties are the teachers' salaries, closely followed by materials budgets, etc. And from the sharp end that can seem a bit unreasonable.
I don't work in the private sector any more. But the experience of acquaintances in some large private organisations isn't that different from what I've described. So actually I'm with you on this one: more power to the small business! But can such businesses compete with the big players? For prospective teachers going out there because they really want to do good things in a classroom, I hope so...
Al |
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Corey
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| Good posts. |
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Albulbul
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 364
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| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 10:25 am Post subject: rip off |
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My advice is to avoid private language scjhools and head for the state sector. That applies ANYWHERE !
In Dr John's Ripoff English Academy theowner gets more money by paying you less.
Why else do long-established schools like B******* have such a dreadful reputation ? |
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