Job Discussion Forums

[dmb]

Do you agree or disagree that 's can be used for plurals?

I've had my doubts. But a friend of mine quoted a couple of examples

The do's and dont's

The if's and but's

That guy uses too many and's

Are these acceptable?

[waxwing]

God no! I find this to be one of the worst forms of illiteracy.
But that's just me..

[dmb]

I agree waxwing, but my friend thrust a book into my hand where he got the info. I can't remember the author. But the book was called "Panda eats shoots and leaves"

[johnslat]

Dear dmb,
I'll weigh in with my opinion - that apostrophes need to be used:

1. to show possession
2. with contractions
3. with A FEW plurals

These last would include such examples as these:

1. A's are the only grade he gives.

(But in a context in which the plural is clear, apostrophes after upper-case letters are not necessary: "He got four As, two Bs, and three Cs.")

2. Don't forget to dot your i's

3. Mind your p's and q's

but NOT

The 1960s ( or '60s) in the USA were a time of change.

or

Bill and I have identical IQs

With some of the examples given above, you can see why an apostrophe would be needed to avoid confusion:

1. A's would seem to be "As"

2. and i's would otherwise seem to be "is".

So, I'd say the examples you gave are definitely acceptable.

Regards,
John

[Hogbear]

I agree with John. Use the apostrophe if it'll look weird (or create a word) without it. I'd use it for "do's and don'ts," otherwise you get the odd-looking "dos." For your other example, I'd use italics if available, i.e., "ifs and buts."

This is a style question, so it really has nothing to do with "illiteracy." The New Yorker uses the apostrophe in decades ("the 1950's").

[leeroy]

Eats, Shoots and Leaves (p.45) reckons that we use apostrophes (among other things) to indicate the plurals of letters ("How many f's are there in Fulham") and the plurals of words ("Do's and don't's").

On p.46 the author notes that

[johnslat]

Dear leeroy,

"or plural dates ("1980's"). Until quite recently it was customary to write ...[this]... and in fact this convention still applies in America."

Not within a hundred mile radius of MY house, it doesn't.

Regards,
John

[leeroy]

John,

Lynne Truss (the author) is British - evidently she needs to brush up on her awareness of "world englishes"!

[Hogbear]

[khmerhit]

[Stephen Jones]

The use of the apostrophe in dates was common until the end of the 1970's. It is frowned on now in American English, and probably is no longer common in British English either. The same applies to the use of the apostrophe after abbreviations and TLAs.

It is not incorrect to use it after those two types, nor after p's and q's or do's and don't's. John Slat appears to have given a reasonable rule of thumb.

[arioch36]

[waxwing]

Well I certainly learnt something.
I'm writing my own new style guide
I hate this kind of thing. Apostrophes are for plurals and contractions. That's it.
Why do we need them for this? If you ask me it just grew out of ignorance. There are still literally millions of native speakers making these plural/apostrophe mistakes every day. And we encourage them?

Grrrr

As for 'to avoid confusion' I think that's just a lot of .. ahem .. you know.
Nobody is going to get confused by 'I got three As at A-level'. What, are we going to ban homonyms from the English language??. With dates you don't even have that lame excuse!

[Shaman]

Maybe I should stop correcting the "Frenchisms" made by my students. By adopting the following manner, it alleviates the ('s) problem.

"The girlfriend of my brother James got the mark of A on three tests."

"My brother James' girlfriend got three A's."



Shaman

[Hogbear]