Job Discussion Forums

[overhere]

I have been flirting with teaching for years...been coming to this site for at least 10 years...the plan was to start TEFL'ng at age 55 in 2016 when I start drawing a pension....honestly I can't take my job anymore...I am miserable.

I enjoy teaching as a volunteer...spend most of my vacation time in SE Asia and that is where I want to be.

my background

JD and 3 unrelated masters

I work as an administrator now...did HR training for years...managed a career center..taught as an adjunct and volunteer as an ESL instructor for a local non profit organization.

My only real debt is $200/month student loan but repayment is based on income so it would be lowered. I have maybe $20,000 in the bank....I have a nice IRA when I turn 59 1/2 and when I turn 55 I will collect a pension around $1950 a month. I am single/no dependents

I live very simply...I don't even own a car

I do like american fastfood other than that I won't be spurging unless it is for a trip to Bangkok now and again

I was thinking about getting my CELTA through ILA or one of the big chains...would be nice to have a job in place after training...eventually would like to teach at an University.


Does my plan so doable???

[mark_in_saigon]

Sure, your profile is really quite good for this work, this place is a lot better for folks with some money and who want to enjoy life than it is for folks who have to have the income without fail. To me, that is the key. Of course, if you don't have money, you can still make it, but it is not as much fun, and a lot riskier in case of injury, job loss, whatever.

Lots of info on most of these questions already on the site, I think the search function is working again, so try it if you have not tried it lately. Lots of discussion on CELTA vs TEFL, and ILA vs Apollo, so just read those threads again. My bottom line is CELTA is better, but you can fail, and ILA will humiliate you, Apollo will respect you. TEFL you can pass in your sleep, and schools will hire you regardless if you look good in person and you demonstrate the abilities. Pick your poison.

My main suggestion, consider slanting your goals towards business training, which can pay more, and is more difficult to find truly qualified teachers for. Any decent native speaker can do some form of English teaching here, not so many have qualifications for advanced business training, which requires simultaneous English improvement (usually), as well as your specialized knowledge.

I would not worry about a job in place, they want to see you here, half of us never show up if hired from abroad. You won't have problems finding work, and it is better to see what the area and school is like in person for you. Lots of folks say unis are worse than language centers. Some may be okay. Perhaps what you really should focus on there is the level of students you are teaching, rather than if it is a uni or a language center. You really have to be here and kick around before you can decide what is truly best for you. I am assuming you have been to this region and/or country, and are well aware of the negatives, right?

[overhere]

Thank you Mark....Yes I have been to HCMC...Although I might not have experienced all the negatives..I know the traffic is crazy and some people attempt to rip you off...but I have enjoyed my visits there and can deal with annoyances...I am pretty flexible about that stuff.....What is your experience with management...are most hands off or are you under the gun? I would rather earn less and work in a more laid back envioronment...My preference is to teach teenager or adults.

So does a TELF suffice in Vietnam? Somehow I got the impression a CELTA was required in most places. Thanks for the heads up on ILA I would not want to pay $2,000 to be humilated and fail the course!...I hated that about law school...for some reason law profs feel compeled to embarrass students/customers...never understood why...because they can I suppose. I will check out Apollo instead.

Thanks again for your advice!

[mark_in_saigon]

CELTA is certainly not required for most places, it may marginally improve your employability, but not as much as it should, based on the quality of the program compared to the TEFL (in my opinion). I just got an outstanding job offer to teach the most advanced students at a very good school based on my other qualifications, they did not blink an eye about the fact I had the TEFL I cert and not the CELTA. They just have to have a cert. On the ILA vs Apollo thing, that is just my experience, which I documented after I checked on them both quite thoroughly, but not to say it could not have changed in the last few months, and it could be different in HN too. For my money, I would do CELTA at Apollo (HCMC, cannot speak with much authority about HN), but again, you can get most jobs with the TEFL, where you just basically pay for a certificate and learn very little. It is a difficult decision, really depends on each student. One can make the argument that being jerked around is part of your education, and will get you ready for life and work here. Just depends on you.

On management, or everything, the best description I know is "pot luck". That is why you really have to be here, and not afraid to hop around (and have the resources and personal freedom to do it) to finally find just the right deal for you. You also have to determine if your life can stand the pollution and other dangers of the big cities. Lots to factor in for each person, what is right for one guy is not right for another. If you smoke anyway, so what, you know? Or just quit smoking but keep breathing, you have the same result. Some management will just totally leave you alone, they fear losing you, they know you are far more competent than they are, but then, they likely have all these built in insoluble problems if they are that way. Others may try to address problems, but do it so poorly that they create more problems with their attempts. Again, you have to hop around a while til you find the right fit. Even saying "such and such school is first rate" does not address what your particular experience will be, it is a generalization that will not apply to every specific. Sorry, it is just pot luck.

[Beautiful Loser]

20K in the bank??? You could milk that for at least 2 years!

Yes, your plan is doable. You'll have more than enough time to find a suitable job.

[Dekadan]

I've found the advice from MIS and BL to be pretty accurate in most posts and I would say they have realistic views and not cynical slants. The only thing that I have a minor disagreement with is MIS's view on the CELTA at ILA. I've had friends go through the course (though not me, I did mine at home) and they were quite happy with it. I didn't hear anything about the humiliation. MIS, do you know if it was a regular instructor doing that? Often, a guest instructor comes in for CELTAs, so I've heard. Regardless, definitely check out the two places and see what gives you a better feel.

In regards to CELTA vs TEFL, if your other qualifications are good enough, it probably doesn't matter too much. However, the general consensus is that CELTA has a better reputation - not meaning a knock on you, MIS. I've picked up hours based on having a CELTA and a Pass A (first time I saw a visible reaction to the Pass A too; the director of studies at my current school was noticeably impressed). If you're academically inclined, and can take constructive criticism, go for the CELTA, and work your a** off, that mark sticks with you. You never know when you'll need that extra bump in qualifications.

Otherwise, yeah, your plan is definitely doable. With 20k in the bank, you can definitely float for a while in HCMC, and then throw in your extra income when they kick in, you'll be sitting pretty... at least in the current circumstances! You never know when things will shake up over there, I found HCMC changes a lot quicker than my home town. Not to mention the inflation...

Best of luck!

[mark_in_saigon]

I try to be as factual as possible, and also state when it is just my opinion, or what I heard second hand. If you go thru my posts on all that, it should all pretty much be there, but it is on more than one thread, so perhaps you missed part of it. Here is what I know firsthand:

The guy handling recruitment to the ILA CELTA in HCMC by email was rude and uppity. The guy doing the same thing with Apollo in HCMC was reasonable and polite. As they both give a CELTA, that was all the info I needed.

A British TEFL teacher in HCMC who knows some of the ILA teachers confirmed that they are rude. He said one of the ILA teachers stated that if half the students did not cry at some point in the process, they were not successful. Note, this is no longer my first hand info, I am just quoting others now.

Kornan on this site had quite a bit of comment on ILA, which was negative, again, not my info.

Please also note I go into a lot of detail about TEFL I. They also are not without sin, their program was second rate (at best), and I have no doubt you would learn more with CELTA. I am very thorough when I do something big in my life, I investigated this stuff in great detail. I feel that there really is the need for a mid range provider on this, one who does a credible job, who does a more professional job than TEFL I, yet a course that most anyone can pass (ANYONE can pass TEFL I). In my mind, given the available choices, if you want the prestige of the CELTA (which does not seem to be rewarded as much as it should be, or perhaps I should say, the TEFL I cert is not as disregarded as IT should be comparatively), I would not choose ILA unless they were a much lower price than Apollo, in other words, they would almost have to pay me to put up with them. When you think about it, we are their customers, why do customers have to pay to be disrespected? I think for the average teacher (and I mean, look at what the average expat teaching here is really like), much as I hate to say it, TEFL I is probably the best choice. You are just paying for a cert, but you will not fail, and the schools do not seem to realize how poorly managed their deal really is. Or maybe they just don't care, that may be it.

Major disclaimer to everything: it is all pot luck here. Yeah, who knows, you can go there and maybe it is all different. I have also read that a lot depends on your profile. Supposedly ILA wants to prove they know more than you, and so you are supposed to sit there like a bright young face, basking in their glory, then everything is fine. The minute you question some obvious flaw in their process or something, you have lost it, and you will be swimming against the current. Experienced professionals should probably lie about their backgrounds until the course is over so they do not have to fight this battle. I drew their wrath when I pointed out some obvious mistakes in their form letter, from that moment on, they hated me. Really, it was my way of testing them, Apollo could take the same kind of criticism with grace and courtesy, and so the question was answered for me. School's out.

[Dekadan]

As I said, MIS (or do you prefer Mark?), I generally agree with everything you say and I do notice that you separate your opinion out. This is the first time I've heard that about ILA (I just read Kornan's comments and yours. Sounds unpleasant), all I've heard is that my friends had a good experience with their course there. I worked there for almost a year, and while I was definitely ready to move on by the end of it, partially that was because of personality differences between the management and me. I recognize that and so I don't hold it against the company. Otherwise, my experience there was generally positive and I would definitely recommend the place to a new teacher because of their teacher support.

As for recognition of the CELTA, that changes depending on where you are in the world. I've been in places where people didn't even know what the CELTA was (which was a huge surprise after everything I've read about it on these boards and elsewhere), and then there's the reaction that I received from my current DoS.

I don't know anything about your certification, but from what I experienced in HCMC, I would expect that you're correct: it doesn't matter what certification you have, just as long as you have one. That's fine as long as things continue as they are and as long as a person stays in Viet Nam, but what about leaving? I'd want a certification where it's possible to fail (you really can't fail the TEFL I?). Not to sound elitist, but just paying for a course shouldn't guarantee that you'll pass, else what is the point? A person could show up, put earphones in and watch shows on their phone during the class, absorb nothing, get their certification and go out into the real world and be a lousy teacher (please don't take this as an implication that you are that type of person or that you're a bad teacher. I rather expect you're the opposite, judging solely from your posts). From what I've heard about Viet Nam, their universities don't seem to care about this, I've read that some of them will pass a student provided they put their name on the exam paper. But this is very short-sighted thinking which will come back to bite them in the a** later when word spreads that they are graduating incapable students. Students will (hopefully!) stop going there and the university will fail.

Anyway, cheers for the advice you pass on to others, I always enjoy reading your posts.

[mark_in_saigon]

Oh, Mark, MIS, it does not matter. Mark is not my real name, as I try to be honest, and do not want to be connected to who I really am here. Yes, it is hard to separate opinion from fact here too. The Vietnamese are generally rude people � opinion. It is very common for me to have people try to push in front of me in the parking queue � fact. Are they rude? Compared to what (or who)? Everything is relative.

I would not try to talk people out of working at ILA (or anywhere), really, if you are going to work here, any experience is of value to you, even (or especially) the bad ones. Helps you learn how to manage yourself. In a bizarre way, working and living here teaches you a lot about good management practices, as you see the results of the bad, so you learn what those lessons from the west really mean. But, not to say ILA is a bad place to work, just plainly stating the facts of my research on using them as a provider of the certificate. While I would say the one guy who acted very rudely and shaped my personal opinion could be gone, I would also say, from my knowledge of organizations, putting a person like that in a position of some importance is not solved by removing that person, it is solved by changing the reason the organization put him in the position to begin with. Like that Italian captain who sank that cruise ship, if he had just missed that rock, he would still be sailing. So great, they fired him, but what if he had missed the rock? Why was he there to begin with? TEFL I was that way, they have a particular person who is way out of her depth on trying to manage things there. But, why is she in that job? Because they are making money, the head guy likes her, she has done what she had to do to work her way up in life, and so it just keeps going on, VN style. Everything is relative. You get bad service, you change providers, you may get worse service. Sometimes I think the whole thing is hopeless, but I try not to give that impression, if we are here, we should make the best of it, and some folks will eventually find their way thru all this to happiness. I have, despite the craziness of it all, and sometimes I find myself drawn to the craziness, it becomes almost an addiction. I wonder if I could truly be happy in a calm, clean, professional world now. I would say, if you do the research, you will find others talking about this same issue (with the ILA training). I did, and that is why I tested them before I gave them my money. The info is out there in other sources, or was when I did my research. On the other hand, if you look around enough, you will likely find similar notes on just about anyone. No one has the franchise on unprofessional behavior here, it is built in, it comes along with your meal at no extra cost.

Look at the last couple of posts here, not sure the last one references ILA or not, one guy talks about some misleading on taxes and pay at ILA.

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=82697&start=75

As I said, no one school has the franchise on unprofessional behavior. Still, ILA could be (maybe I should say, most likely is) one of the best places for an expat teacher to work. I won�t dispute that.

CELTA may be worth a lot more in other locations, I have no expertise on this issue, at all. I just know that here in VN, these hiring managers do not discount the TEFL I cert to the extent they should (based on the quality of the program). On the other hand, maybe everyone knows better than we (the expats) that it is all bs (everything), and they are just hiring us based on our general presentation. I know I can get offers for top level jobs with the TEFL I, not a word is spoken about the cert or the program, they focus on my overall package. The cert is like your pulse, if you have one, move on to what really matters, how do you look in front of a class? Yeah, if we are discussing what is best for folks who move to other countries, I am not qualified to say much, except, if you are serious about teaching ESL in other places, why come to VN to begin with? While I do like the people, some of them are a lot of fun to work with, some of them are highly motivated, and I think they are very intelligent and adaptable people, the system is of course the problem, and no one is gonna change that (from what I am seeing). So, if you are serious about ESL, then go somewhere serious. You have to have specific reasons for being here (in my opinion) and ESL is a way for you to reach those other goals.

Totally agree with your analysis about what is the point of the cert. To be honest, it may even be better to just buy one without attending, and I have had managers tell me �oh, he can just do the online course, he just needs the paper�. He could also go out on the street the way the VN do and buy it. This gets very deep into the system, we could write very tragic stories on life for the VN, as I know of people whose lives have been ruined (or lost) because of the system screwing them out of their certs that they deserved, as they did not pay up the extra money demanded. Yet they could then go and buy a fake cert for the program they took, where they got screwed out of their real cert because they did not do the extra payment they never should have had to make. I mean, you start thinking about all this, what the hell is the point of any of this, you know?

I did hear that one of the recent courses at TELF I failed a student. They do tell them that if they are accepted for the course, they almost surely will pass (they do, but a few just quit showing up), so they have like a 97% pass rate or some crazy number like that. They will accept people over the phone, with no real vetting, the girl who judges you is not at all qualified to judge the skills of a native speaker, but the management found her to have other important skills in the past, apparently. Anyway, the guy who failed, come to find out he could speak and listen, but he could not read and write (in English, did not hear what his native language really was, they are the great provider of certs for non native speakers). So one of the native English speaking teachers took him aside and told him, "look, you really have to be able to read and write to teach English". Great story, huh? I would have loved to have seen that, we had one guy almost that bad in our group, we all had to put up with his act til finally he just left one day. He left behind his briefcase, everything, just walked out, never told anyone what was up, did not answer his phone, his emails, just disappeared. That is the kind of guy who will fail. Our guy would have passed if he would have just kept showing up.

[Mr. Kalgukshi]

Future violations of the board policy Announcement below found at the top of this forum will see the "severe sanctions" mentioned in the policy:

http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=83795