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Dev
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
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 Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: Koreans are the worst English speakers says survey |
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"Koreans are considered the worst among 12 Asian nations in their ability to make themselves understood in English. Their average TOEFL scores ranked 93rd among 147 nations."
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2006/12/16/200612160027.asp
These poor results despite spending so much money on learning English. What do you think are the key problems leading to such poor performance levels?
And what do you think about these English villages popping up around Korea? Do you think they will help students any better than a good academy?
Last edited by Dev on Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Koreans are to stubborn to see sense.
If they listened to foreigners a bit more they might make some headway.
It'd help if they put education before profits in their priorities too. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: Koreans are the worst English speakers says survey |
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Can you say "selection bias"? |
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Passions
Joined: 31 May 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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It has to deal with Korea's strict adherence to Confucianism.
They cannot relate or understand the concept of individualism that comes with speaking English. |
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Mowie
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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I do agree that there is likely some bias in the sampling.
However, results like this sadden and frustrate me. I am thankful to have work that I enjoy. Even if my work is part of insidious colnialism, I get joy out of teaching.
Not only is the financial investment in learning english enormous, the time and effort spent is also. I agree that there are significant problems in the structures and attitudes regarding english in Korea.
Seeing my students struggle after spending so much time, effort and money is frustrating. Often when I encounter students that are terrible at conversation, but focus on paperwork, I rationalize that these students are focussing on tests which are mandatory for schools/jobs. Many even go to hogwans that specialize in test taking strategies. Yet, the results of tests (and on the street) are so poor.
How long would it take for people to give up on hogwans?
What are the options? |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Mowie wrote: |
What are the options? |
Allow foreign teachers greater control and authority over the entire programme.
it follows that a teacher with years of exp teaching english to koreans is going to know a lot more about what works than some inexperienced Korean who has more say simply because of his skin colour.
But they allow foreigners no real say or input. instead they limit us because they're so afraid of losing control. How many useful teaching ideas have you had ignored by korean management? how many times have you done what is prescribed by clueless koreans because they refuse to accept common sense as proposed by a foreigner?
from what I've seen the japanese do better because they have experienced native speaker foreigners running many of their english programmes. |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:27 am Post subject: |
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I don't think Koreans are that bad from my own experiences. I had more trouble getting things done when I was I Japan than here.
Of course Koreans can't really compare with people from Malaysia or Singapore. Those guys speak something like 3 languages and a couple of dialects! |
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Zoobot
Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:41 am Post subject: |
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wow... Maybe the English teachers here are just bad! j/k. I tend to be a little skeptical of a tests' effectiveness for measuring the effectiveness of someone's communication ability in English. I emphasize "a little." I have had my share of unilateral decisions made by management that have limited the teaching strategies I can use.  |
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madowlspeaks
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Location: Somewhere in time and space
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Passions wrote: |
It has to deal with Korea's strict adherence to Confucianism.
They cannot relate or understand the concept of individualism that comes with speaking English. |
I agree. Learning a language is not just about learning phonetics and grammar. Adpoting a new language is, in a way, adopting another cultural identity. Generally speaking, because Korean society is collectivistic and homogenous there is little chance for many to see things from a different angle or learn an idea from a new perspective. Yet, on the flip side, there are many open minded Koreans who understand this and hence try to make genuine friendships with foreigners. |
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DaeguKid
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Koreans are the worst English speakers says survey |
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[quote="DevWhat do you think are the key problems leading to such poor performance levels?
[/quote]
Here is a guess...poor English teachers? 
Seriously though, I would say the Koreans work ethic. Too much textbook and not enough free thinking. Always has to be an answer that they can memorize somewhere in some text book out there. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| Japan seemed much worse off for English than Korea when I was there. Part of it was that the subway maps there aren't in English. Beijing was pretty bad too. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| I really think those results will be different in a few years. The people of college age now didn't start studying English in school until middle school. Now they start in 3rd grade and soon they will start in 1st grade. Some schools already do. I really think that even a little study and a younger age will help Koreans feel more comfortable with English and will help them to attempt to speak with more confidence. |
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bosintang
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Location: In the pot with the rest of the mutts
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| I really think those results will be different in a few years. |
I used to think that until I started teaching in a middle-school. I'm less optimistic these days.
I don't think it's an "Us" vs "Them" thing. As much as we might like to massage our egos, we're not critical. Instead of thinking up anymore brainbird schemes, making teacher training courses, hiring imported teachers, etc. etc., they need a serious re-think about management and accountability. They need very specific and realistic benchmarks and people running these programs need to be accountable for these. Their companies need to lose their contracts when they don't reach these benchmarks, and their bosses need to lose their jobs. Likewise, whatever brainbird beauracrat decided to hire 10,000 foreign teachers needs to be accountable for what the hell 10,000 foreign teachers are supposed to accomplish. When foreign (or Korean) teachers do not accomplish these goals, beaucrats in Boards of Educations need to LOSE THEIR JOBS when these programs fail. As for hagwons...well, that's another story we all know too well by now.
Until Koreans start demanding accountability for their money being spent on English programs, until people are ultimately responsible for results, they are just going to continue pissing in the wind. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:32 am Post subject: |
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For those interested, data (a bit old) can be found here:
http://ftp.ets.org/pub/toefl/0203test_year_data.pdf
Some comparisons:
country - test takers - average score (out of 300)
China 24,075 213
Hong Kong 8,924 212
Korea 86,188 209
Taiwan 27,000 202
Thailand 10,995 199
Japan 81,749 188
Given the disparities in sample sizes, Korea is not doing that bad.
And a view from Japan which echoes some of the previous comments in this thread:
http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr25/ap56-Nut.html
| Quote: |
Why is it that Japanese people seem to have such a hard time with English? Some people have suggested it has to do with cultural factors�shyness in dealing with foreigners or perhaps a fear of making mistakes and losing face. But in my view, the main reason has to do with the way English is taught in most middle and high schools in Japan and it is at this level that efforts should be made to improve English-language teaching.
Since most universities in Japan require students to pass a very tough English exam as a condition for entrance, teachers at the secondary level have tended to teach English as an examination subject rather than as a living language. Consequently, until recently, English has generally been taught through reading and translation as a set of rules to be memorized in preparation for entrance examinations. This �entrance examination English' emphasizes knowledge about the language rather than performance in the language and so, after 6 years of textbook and blackboard oriented study with few opportunities to develop speaking and listening skills, is it any wonder students become demotivated and find English a chore? |
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yesnoyesyesno
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
| Mowie wrote: |
What are the options? |
Allow foreign teachers greater control and authority over the entire programme.
it follows that a teacher with years of exp teaching english to koreans is going to know a lot more about what works than some inexperienced Korean who has more say simply because of his skin colour.
But they allow foreigners no real say or input. instead they limit us because they're so afraid of losing control. How many useful teaching ideas have you had ignored by korean management? how many times have you done what is prescribed by clueless koreans because they refuse to accept common sense as proposed by a foreigner?
from what I've seen the japanese do better because they have experienced native speaker foreigners running many of their english programmes. |
it's very rare for a teacher anywhere to have any kind of say in the make up of a curriculum. it's bureaucratic and serves a purpose for those who determine it in the end. |
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