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Grammar question
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Gopher



Joined: 04 Jun 2005

PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this question truly fall under grammar's purview?

Every style book I consult strongly advises avoiding "there is/it is/there are" constructions in the first place. Indeed, one professor where I now study destroys any unfortunate graduate student who carelessly uses "to be" in any seminar paper...

Avoid: There is a famous author who lives on my block.
Use: A famous author lives on my block.

Avoid: There are many people who like television.
Use: Many people like television.

Avoid: It is rarely the case that people refuse to help.
Use: People rarely refuse to help.

Advise your students to choose another construction when talking about the balloon and the parachute, then.

See CliffsQuickReview, Writing: Grammar, Usage, and Style; or better yet: The Elements of Style. Two small paperbacks that seem to contain everything.

If you seek an authoritative answer from a prescriptive grammarian's perspective, however, neither of these will be much use to you.
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Satori wrote:
There is a balloon and ( there is ) a parachute.

I can`t believe "there are" is correct. It feels completely wrong which is usually a strong sign that it is. We don`t have to know all the rules as native speakers to feel what is wrong. I`ll have to do some more reading on this, but I`m not at all convinced by "the girlfriend".



I still feel it is correct to say "There is a balloon and a parachute?"
However, what sounds correct and what is actually correct in English are different matters. For example, many people often say "Does Sam and Andy want to come", but it is supposed to be "Do Sam and Andy want to come?". I think we all need to do some serious reading on these issues, so there will be no confusion. I am planning on getting a thorough book on grammar to go over such confusing points.
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SeoulFinn



Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Location: 1h from Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:34 am    Post subject: Stay tuned! Reply with quote

Guys, I'll tell my better half of your questions and doubts. If she wants to continue in participating in this this discussion, I'll let her write under my account again.

As some people have already mentioned, even to me "there is" sounds more correct than "there are." Anyway, I also know that grammatically "there are" is correct in this case. (Don't ask me why, because I'm just a Finn and I'm not even involved in the English teaching industry.) To me the function of language is to make the exchange of ideas possible. As long as the "message" is passed undistorted and the recipient understands me correctly, that's enough for me.
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Moldy Rutabaga



Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"There are a balloon and a parachute."
This sentence is correct because a balloon and a parachute are the subjects of the sentence. It is called a subject-verb reverse sentence, which means the original sentence is "A balloon and a parachute are there."

I do not agree; firstly, because you can't just reverse the order of a sentence whenever the mood strikes you and retain the same grammatical relationships. Secondly, the second 'there' functions in a different way, specifying that something is in a place-- and not 'here'; 'there is' is a statement of existence. Perhaps in an archaic way we could say 'fiddlers six were there' but this is obviously not the situation.

I would parse them this way.
There is a balloon and a parachute on the beach.
There are balloons and parachutes on the beach.

Ken:>
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Satori



Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all

PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However, what sounds correct and what is actually correct in English are different matters. For example, many people often say "Does Sam and Andy want to come", but it is supposed to be "Do Sam and Andy want to come?".

People may say that but it sounds wrong to me, so it's not a good comparison.

I remain totally unconvinced by the girlfriend and unless I see her assertion confirmed by a higher authority than herself I will not be moved by this idea.
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stevenpa



Joined: 24 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:05 am    Post subject: Re: Stay tuned! Reply with quote

SeoulFinn wrote:
Guys, I'll tell my better half of your questions and doubts. If she wants to continue in participating in this this discussion, I'll let her write under my account again.


Please do ask her to come back, SeoulFinn. I found her comments interesting and valuable to forming a good answer on this topic.
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stevenpa



Joined: 24 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moldy Rutabaga wrote:
you can't just reverse the order of a sentence whenever the mood strikes you and retain the same grammatical relationships.


I can't?
Can't I?

I can!

I = subject
can't = auxiliary verb
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