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spyro25
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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 Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: grammar trivia! |
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I thought it might be fun to have a thread where we can get an answer to those tricky questions some students ask sometimes.
For starters, does anyone know the rule about how we know that the letter 's' is pronounced 'sh' and when it is pronounced 'ss'? for example 'sure' (sh), sue (ss).
i learned the other day that we use soft 'c' when the following letter is 'e' 'i' or 'y', i feel so dumb for not knowing that!
post em if you got em! |
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Bondrock
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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we have 14 variations in spelling for the sound of "sh"
shoe, sugar, issue, mansion, mission, nation, suspicion, ocean, nauseous, conscious, chaperon, schist, fuchsia and pshaw.
source: A History of the English Language by Baugh and Cable
Last edited by Bondrock on Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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spyro25
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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so you mean that there are 14 variations in spelling where the sound 'sh' is produced, not just those 14 words of course?
like su, sh, sch etc.? |
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spyro25
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| how would you account for the difference between 'sugar' and 'super'. obviously the following consonant after 'su' makes a difference here, as p is a plosive and g is not, but does this rule determine whether nor not this is the case in examples like suit (a vowel) and sugar? The dictionary definition you have posted does not explain much really.... |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| How about hard and soft 'g'? Why gin and giraffe but also girl and give? |
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Delirium's Brother
Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| spyro25 wrote: |
| how would you account for the difference between 'sugar' and 'super'. obviously the following consonant after 'su' makes a difference here, as p is a plosive and g is not, but does this rule determine whether nor not this is the case in examples like suit (a vowel) and sugar? The dictionary definition you have posted does not explain much really.... |
I would account for it by citing historical sound changes and the fact that sugar is a borrowed word (if I'm not mistaken); and the fact that English orthography doesn't keep pace with the historical changes in common pronounciation. Ghost and knight are good examples. |
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Bondrock
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:51 am Post subject: |
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the etymology of words determines the sound...
over 25 thousand words were borrowed (forced?) from Latin and about the same from French (borrowed may not be the right word... sorry to linguistic experts) |
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spyro25
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I would account for it by citing historical sound changes and the fact that sugar is a borrowed word (if I'm not mistaken); and the fact that English orthography doesn't keep pace with the historical changes in common pronounciation. |
i'm aware of the reasons why words are written as they are - the orthography argument is sound - i'm still wondering if there is a quick and simple to rule to determine their placement in any given example. seems like there isnt one in this case - which is the point of this thread!
anyone got any others? the reason being is that i was told the rule about soft 'c' by a korean teacher (who even admits herself that she is a bit dumb!). Koreans, in their grammar heavy english training however many moons ago picked up a lot of these little 'tricks' if you will. i'm interested to know how many more like this there! |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: grammar trivia! |
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| spyro25 wrote: |
I thought it might be fun to have a thread where we can get an answer to those tricky questions some students ask sometimes.
For starters, does anyone know the rule about how we know that the letter 's' is pronounced 'sh' and when it is pronounced 'ss'? for example 'sure' (sh), sue (ss).
i learned the other day that we use soft 'c' when the following letter is 'e' 'i' or 'y', i feel so dumb for not knowing that!
post em if you got em! |
That would be phonics trivia, not grammar trivia. |
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spyro25
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| that would be phonics trivia |
not necessarily - this is concerned with orthography, and spotting patterns in english SPELLING that facilitate the 'sh' sound - not necessarily the phonemes concerned - sort of like the 'a before e except after c' rule. i'm aware of how the distribution of phonemes in a word constitute that word's sound, what i'm looking for is more of these quick little 'rules' that our korean teachers seem to be so full of. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| spyro25 wrote: |
| i'm aware of how the distribution of phonemes in a word constitute that word's sound, what i'm looking for is more of these quick little 'rules' that our korean teachers seem to be so full of. |
Hmmm, how about 'two complete clauses seperated by a comma rather than a semi-colon, full stop, or conjunction constitutes a comma splice'.
Re: orthography, the double-consonant = short vowel / single = long vowel, as in latter / later is a useful one for Koreans to know. |
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spyro25
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| those are good yu bum - now to fit them into a cheery song! |
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antoniothegreat
Joined: 28 Aug 2005
Location: Yangpyeong
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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i before e, accept after c....
wait, nervermind... |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| spyro25 wrote: |
| those are good yu bum - now to fit them into a cheery song! |
Here's a little ditty to the tune of 'If You're Happy and you Know it' that would say about all that needs to be said.
If you're gunna get it printed first you check.
You gotta send it to the waegook to correct.
Don't just send it to the printer
In a mad dash like a sprinter
First you give it to the waegook to correct. |
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spyro25
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:10 am Post subject: |
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If you're gunna get it printed first you check.
You gotta send it to the waegook to correct.
Don't just send it to the printer
In a mad dash like a sprinter
First you give it to the waegook to correct. |
you owe me a new keyboard for the water i just blew onto it! LMAO |
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