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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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 Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: Ten myths, truths about atheism |
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There is a fantastic editorial in the Korea Herald today by Sam Harris about this topic. Some of you are no doubt going to be all "Oh, that Sam Harris guy is such a ___________". Whatever.
Buy it.
Read it.
Learn from it.
Religious folk are always saying to me "You should just read the (insert name of holy book)". Well, I've read the books. Now, I'm telling you to read Sam Harris. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Ten myths, truths about atheism |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
There is a fantastic editorial in the Korea Herald today by Sam Harris about this topic. Some of you are no doubt going to be all "Oh, that Sam Harris guy is such a ___________". Whatever.
Buy it.
Read it.
Learn from it.
Religious folk are always saying to me "You should just read the (insert name of holy book)". Well, I've read the books. Now, I'm telling you to read Sam Harris. |
I've read the Sam Harris book, and he makes many very good points. But his philosophy doesn't honestly take into account the many religious groups that are liberal. It is possible to be religious and liberal. He doesn't seem to get that, and I cannot understand educated people who cannot get that. Of course, if he accepted the reality of religious liberals (admittedly, he does give lip service to them), his book wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is. People like a dichotomy.
Peace |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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"I don't believe in all that miracle mumbo-jumbo. I couldn't care less about the afterlife, and frankly I'm not so sure about the whole "God" thing. However, I believe that (insert religion/religious figure's name here) had a good philosophy for living and I plan on living a long, happy, and productive life based on the principles of that philosophy."
If religious people could say this, the gap could be bridged. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Nice article. Too bad so many religious folk will not understand it. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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You can see him give a talk on his book 'End of Faith' on youtube
and his O'Reilly interveiw about Terri Schiavo.
I like the 10 myths, will try to keep those arguments handy. |
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manlyboy
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Location: Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| the term �atheism� has acquired such an extraordinary stigma in the United States |
Bloody hell. He makes it sound like cops are walking up and slapping yellow stars on their coats. Not only does he divide vast numbers of people into either "marvelous" atheists or uneducated religionists, he can't get beyond the classic fundamentalist Leftist trap of dividing groups into "victims" and "oppressors". Atheists are undoubtedly under-represented in government, but they have a hell of a lot of clout in business, media and academia. Spare me the victim routine, buddy. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually there has been a lot of research done that shows most Americans are less likely to trust an atheist than a bible-humping Christian. I think it's a stupid attitude based on nothing. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| Actually there has been a lot of research done that shows most Americans are less likely to trust an atheist than a bible-humping Christian. I think it's a stupid attitude based on nothing. |
You know, I would agree with a lot more of your posts if you just said "Christian" instead of Jesus vampire, bible-humper, etc. I don't think you realize that you weaken your (and their) position with the constant slander. It's like when one person says "You know, I'm concerned that new immigrants from the Middle East aren't making efforts to fit in to the norms we hold to be important in our society" and another person jumps in with "Yeah preach it brother farking towelheads go home!" - here person B should have just kept his mouth shut. Not to mention that these are no more clever than $tarbucks and Starsucks, Harpercrite, Taliban Jack and all the other insults that can be thought up by any elementary student.
| A more sensible RACETRAITOR in another universe wrote: |
| Actually there has been a lot of research done that shows most Americans are less likely to trust an atheist than a Christian. I think it's a stupid attitude based on nothing. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| I find many of his arguments to be very unconvincing as they tend to stray from the point or attack straw men. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:30 am Post subject: |
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There is an intriguing difference between the US and UK.
In UK it's often thought that one can't be a Christian and NOT be a liberal. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:51 am Post subject: |
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3) Atheism is dogmatic.
Jews, Christians and Muslims claim that their scriptures are so prescient of humanity�s needs that they could only have been written under the direction of an omniscient deity. An atheist is simply a person who has considered this claim, read the books and found the claim to be ridiculous. One doesn�t have to take anything on faith, or be otherwise dogmatic, to reject unjustified religious beliefs. As the historian Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71) once said: �I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.�
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Poor paragraph, especially the bold.
Atheism does not merely reject the views of the religions, it rejects the possibility of there being a god at all. That's precisely the controversy surrounding atheism and the author does not address this at all.
Atheism is definitely dogmatic, since whether there is a god or whether there isn't is a state of affairs that cannot be known or observed. I strongly suspect there isn't a god because it's a very primitive belief and god's existence also requires explanation, so the questions do not cease with the god theory, and it therefore completely fails as an explanatory attempt. But I refuse to rule the possibility.
Other problems with the essay are that it accepts uncritically that the apparent universe actually exists. This is based on fallacious reasoning...."we see a physical universe, therefore there is a physical universe".....a physical universe is presupposed prior to the conclusion that it exists. The universe of observation is contaminated with concepts and data viewed through subjective sensory faculties (features of consciousness in short) thus the claim that such a thing has an independent existence is suspicious.
If atheism (a) simply accepts that the cosmos apparent to us actually exists in precisely the way it appears to us and (b) rejects outright the possibility that there exists a god-like thing, then it's a highly rubbish position in my book. I've always thought so.
To the laymen, it's quite a good read. But if you're schooled in metaphysics and epistemology, it's not a terribly serious commentary. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| A more sensible RACETRAITOR in another universe wrote: |
| Actually there has been a lot of research done that shows most Americans are less likely to trust an atheist than a Christian. I think it's a stupid attitude based on nothing. |
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Point taken. I've always considered Christians less trustworthy than atheists, because they're always motivated by the greed to take your soul. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
Poor paragraph, especially the bold.
Atheism does not merely reject the views of the religions, it rejects the possibility of there being a god at all. |
Not true, there are strong atheists and agnostic atheists.
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| That's precisely the controversy surrounding atheism and the author does not address this at all. |
True that he doesn't go in to definitions of atheism.
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| Atheism is definitely dogmatic, since whether there is a god or whether there isn't is a state of affairs that cannot be known or observed. |
Atheism simple put is an absence of belief, no doctrine or ideology involved.
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| I strongly suspect there isn't a god because it's a very primitive belief and god's existence also requires explanation, so the questions do not cease with the god theory, and it therefore completely fails as an explanatory attempt. But I refuse to rule the possibility. |
So you are an atheist, good. Then you start to lose me with your epistemologically talk.
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| Other problems with the essay are that it accepts uncritically that the apparent universe actually exists. This is based on fallacious reasoning...."we see a physical universe, therefore there is a physical universe".....a physical universe is presupposed prior to the conclusion that it exists. The universe of observation is contaminated with concepts and data viewed through subjective sensory faculties (features of consciousness in short) thus the claim that such a thing has an independent existence is suspicious. |
"I think therefore I am", so atheists can't use the word universe now?
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| If atheism (a) simply accepts that the cosmos apparent to us actually exists in precisely the way it appears to us and (b) rejects outright the possibility that there exists a god-like thing, then it's a highly rubbish position in my book. I've always thought so. |
So far the universe lacks a god shaped hole. Again not all atheists are the same and reject the possibility of a god. You can be an atheist and believe anything is possible.
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| To the laymen, it's quite a good read. But if you're schooled in metaphysics and epistemology, it's not a terribly serious commentary. |
Sorry I did media arts |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| I'm a very serious atheist, meaning I think all religions on Earth are total garbage. I am less sure there is no god, just that no religion has ever described it accurately. |
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