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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| I'm not sure how to respond to that. Do we know when people had no concept of religion or god? |
Ah, come on now.
We know for a fact, through archeological evidence, that most religions arose in the past 10 thousand years or so. Some evidence suggests that primitives such as the Neanderthal practiced some sort of religion because they buried their dead with trinkets and beads. But, again, we're talking tens of thousands of years ago. The genus homo (that is, human) has been around for millions of years and no evidence exists which shows they worshiped anything. Of course, it's possible we just haven't found any yet.
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For example, would a pastor saying that atheism is a dangerous ideology be an example of atheists being demonized?
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Yes, and the media referencing the fact that a killer was an atheist, for example, would be as well. Or, a pastor saying to his congregation "Don't vote for that guy 'cause he's an atheist" would be.
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| This is how you explain away what he said? By putting words in his mouth? So, the president of the NAS, a group you seem to respect and even trust, was being disingenuous? Stretching the truth? Lying? |
No, I was making a joke. I guess you didn't find it funny. To wit: he said "many" which means what? Exactly how many out of the 7% who did not answer that they don't believe in a, to use your words, "personal god"?
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| I don't think he makes very good points. That doesn't mean I think good points can't be made on the subject. I just don't think he makes them (at least not in this article) |
I see. Frankly I don't think he's going to win any converts, but I do agree with him that the myths exist and do in fact reinforce stereotypes about (i.e. demonize) atheists.
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In the article the myth was, "Atheists believe that life is meaningless." I've never met anyone who thought that |
You mean you've never met a religious person who thought that about atheists, or you've never me an atheist who thought that? I've met both types. I drink with a few of them on a regular basis. 
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| If atheists do not believe this and also do not believe it arose by chance, then what do they believe? I wish he would have mentioned some alternatives. |
Most atheists I know, myself included, believe that the mystery of the formation of the universe will ultimately be revealed by science, not religion. In other words, when we finally unzip the fabric of the universe we will simply find more scientific, physics equations to solve, not some huge dude with a long beard and billions of people dancing around his feet singing off-key.
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I'm not sure many hold to this "myth" and he doesn't even attempt to demonstrate that people do. |
Actually, this myth is the most non-mythical of the bunch. Many atheists do come off as being arrogant asses. They like to say things like "People who believe in religion are deluded, etc." It's just backlash against all the people that have said for so long "You're an atheist which means you have no morals, hence you're a bad person". However, not all atheists are arrogant so it still is a stereotype/myth.
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| Your debunking of this "myth" is much better than his. |
Maybe I should write a book.
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| Because we only know that many theists don't prefer to vote for an atheist. We don't know why. At least not from that poll used in the article. |
Ahhh, come on. You and I both know that most religious people fear atheists because atheists believe they will not be held accountable to anyone at the end of the day (i.e. when they die); therefore, atheists feel no need or desire to live their lives "virtuously". |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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At the end of the day, an atheist will be in worse position than he was in at the start. Scientific preoccupation of how the universe was formed doesn't give anyone a clue as to why we are here, and the opportunity afforded by the developed consciousness of human life becomes wasted ...
One who takes advantage of Vedic wisdom can understand that our energy is better spent on getting out of our material predicament by following the path of liberated souls than by trying to overcome the basic miseries of material nature following godless scientists. And, our karmic bond to this world doesn't automatically end at death...
Those who die in purified consciousness won't have to suffer through another cycle of birth, old age, disease and death trapped within another physical body. Ultimately, that's the only worthwhile goal.
Material happiness is a great illusion... Despite appearances and false assumptions to the contrary, no one has ever experienced true happiness in material consciousness. Only liers, bluffers, cheaters, and fools claim that this world is really enjoyable when all things are considered. Diehard materialists in polluted consciousness are as good as pigs - who also think that everything (no matter how abominable...) is just hunky dory... |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Pigs are atheists or materialistic?
I'm sure if we were all as deluded as you and gullible enough to swallow your vedic claptrap we'd too be super happy.
Not all atheists are preoccupied with science. And nice to see your beliefs rejects investigative science.
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| One who takes advantage of Vedic wisdom can understand that our energy is better spent on getting out of our material predicament by following the path of liberated souls than by trying to overcome the basic miseries of material nature following godless scientists. And, our karmic bond to this world doesn't automatically end at death... |
Bully for you. Since you are not in a state of purified consciousness, when you die and come back as a pig please tell us this hogwash then not now. Isn't it about time you rid yourself of such materialistic things such as computers, the internet, food, oxygen.
signed
Die-hard Materialistic Pigs |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Material happiness is a great illusion... Despite appearances and false assumptions to the contrary, no one has ever experienced true happiness in material consciousness. Only liers, bluffers, cheaters, and fools claim that this world is really enjoyable when all things are considered. Diehard materialists in polluted consciousness are as good as pigs - who also think that everything (no matter how abominable...) is just hunky dory... |
But I love my Xbox! Does this mean I can't attain enlightenment? |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
But I love my Xbox! Does this mean I can't attain enlightenment? |
Fool! You need an XBOX 360 at least. Do you want to come baack as an Atari? |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Fool! You need an XBOX 360 at least. Do you want to come baack as an Atari? |
But mine's modded! At least I'll come back as an Intellivision, right? |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
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| Fool! You need an XBOX 360 at least. Do you want to come baack as an Atari? |
But mine's modded! At least I'll come back as an Intellivision, right? |
How many controllers do you have? |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| How many controllers do you have? |
Four. Does that mean I'm in? |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
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| How many controllers do you have? |
Four. Does that mean I'm in? |
I'll just ask the pigs. They say it's hunky dory.
You can come back as a VIC 20, you lucky pig. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm in purified enough consciousness to know what is material and what is spiritual. Utility is the principle of real renunciation. Anything that can be utilized to serve God can become spiritualized, including high-tech stuff, weaponry - even sex when used to produce God-conscious children. The same things used just for one's own personal sense gratificatication remain material... |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Get back in that purifier RT.
Please don't use weapons or sex for God. Especially at the same time. Isn't this where most religious abuse arises. You can rape and kill in god's name.
I think your attachments to modern technology is holding you back from true pur�e bliss. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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Don't worry - I have no weapons. Let me try to present the big picture from this angle:
God is the infinitely conscious source of everything - including all human brains and brainpower ...
Since everything material - including all food, air, water, fire, chemicals, etc. - is supplied by Him, He is the real owner of everything that humans labor to produce.
As minute part-and-parcel "children" of God we have a natural right to use the property of God to fulfill all our needs. Infinite God is self-sufficient and doesn't need anything material. His only interest in creating innumerable living entities from his divine energy is to enjoy pure loving exchanges on the spiritual platform...
Living entities who desire to enjoy separately from God are reluctantly given material facility to do so, but the whole world is set up so that we experience frustration and disappointment in all our material relationships. Ultimately, nothing material can satisfy the living beings unless utilized to please the limitless transcendental senses of the Supreme Person. When God is pleased with us we feel real happiness from within.
Material happiness and distress is pre-determined by our karma. From a spiritual master we can learn the science of how to act without generating any karma (good or bad...) in order to attain liberation from material bondage. We can basically practice serving God via bhakti yoga and fix our consciousness by chanting and hearing transcendental names of the Original Person... |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Don't worry - I have no weapons. Let me try to present the big picture from this angle:
God is the infinitely conscious source of everything - including all human brains and brainpower ...
Since everything material - including all food, air, water, fire, chemicals, etc. - is supplied by Him, He is the real owner of everything that humans labor to produce.
As minute part-and-parcel "children" of God we have a natural right to use the property of God to fulfill all our needs. Infinite God is self-sufficient and doesn't need anything material. His only interest in creating innumerable living entities from his divine energy is to enjoy pure loving exchanges on the spiritual platform...
Living entities who desire to enjoy separately from God are reluctantly given material facility to do so, but the whole world is set up so that we experience frustration and disappointment in all our material relationships. Ultimately, nothing material can satisfy the living beings unless utilized to please the limitless transcendental senses of the Supreme Person. When God is pleased with us we feel real happiness from within.
Material happiness and distress is pre-determined by our karma. From a spiritual master we can learn the science of how to act without generating any karma (good or bad...) in order to attain liberation from material bondage. We can basically practice serving God via bhakti yoga and fix our consciousness by chanting and hearing transcendental names of the Original Person... |
Does that come with a one year world wide guarantee?
What is the after sales service like? |
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mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Ultimately, nothing material can satisfy the living beings unless utilized to please the limitless transcendental senses of the Supreme Person |
Whoah! Apparently you haven't seen the same Marilyn Chambers videos I have..........Yowwwwsuh!! |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| mack the knife wrote: |
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| I'm not sure how to respond to that. Do we know when people had no concept of religion or god? |
Ah, come on now.
We know for a fact, through archeological evidence, that most religions arose in the past 10 thousand years or so. Some evidence suggests that primitives such as the Neanderthal practiced some sort of religion because they buried their dead with trinkets and beads. But, again, we're talking tens of thousands of years ago. The genus homo (that is, human) has been around for millions of years and no evidence exists which shows they worshiped anything. Of course, it's possible we just haven't found any yet.
That is possible. It is also possible that when there was no religion, there was no concept of morality either. You seem to assume there was. What archaelogoical evidence is there to support that? Have codes of conduct/ systems of law been discovered that pre-date any religious artifacts? I honestly don't know, but I would guess not.
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For example, would a pastor saying that atheism is a dangerous ideology be an example of atheists being demonized?
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Yes
Ah. Now I see why you feel atheists have demonized. Your definition of demonize is quite inclusive. If this example qualifes as demonizing, then basically everyone is demonizing everyone else. Dems demonize Reps and vice versa. Capitalists demonize commies and commies capitalists. Theists demonize atheists and atheists demonize theists. There are plenty of atheists who say that religion or faith is dangerous or destructive. As for me, I don't think denouncing ideologies is the same as demonizing people.
Exactly how many out of the 7% who did not answer that they don't believe in a, to use your words, "personal god"?
I'd like to clarify that the "personal god" distinction is not mine. Did you read the link I provided? The creator of the original survey, that has since been duplicated as closely as possible, chose to use the concept of personal God (one you could expect to answers prayer) rather than simply God. The difference is huge. For example, this Harris guy pines that it's tough for an atheist to be elected and then uses this poll used to guage the NAS. Well, if his definition of atheists is anyone who rejects the idea of a personal God, I've got news for him. We've already had presidents like that. Check any atheist web-site and they will argue vigorously that the U.S. was not founded on Christian principles, but upon reason and that the founders were Deists, not Christians. How would a Deist answer the question, "Do you believe in a personal God-one you can pray to expect and answer from?" They would answer "no."
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I'm not sure many hold to this "myth" and he doesn't even attempt to demonstrate that people do. |
Actually, this myth is the most non-mythical of the bunch. Many atheists do come off as being arrogant asses. They like to say things like "People who believe in religion are deluded, etc."
Here, you admit that atheists 'demonize' the religious (by your definition of demonize, not mine). Actually, sift through the posts here at Dave's and I would wager you will find more examples of the religious being demonized than atheists. Personally, I don't think this stuff is demonizing. Demonizing to me is more severe. You say you drink on occasion with some theists? To me that shows that neither group has been too demonized to the other. People can disagree very stronlgy about relgion but still not view the other person as "evil" or to be avoided.
Ahhh, come on. You and I both know that most religious people fear atheists because atheists believe they will not be held accountable to anyone at the end of the day (i.e. when they die); therefore, atheists feel no need or desire to live their lives "virtuously".
The theists you drink with, do they fear you? |
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