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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Second of all, Canada was not a country in 1812. |
This is SUCH a silly and meaningless point. |
No, it is not.
Dutch historian Pieter Geyl wrote an extremely influential historiographical critque on the dangers of internalizing nationalist sentiment and then projecting it backwards -- primordially, in some cases. Part of what professional historians call "presentist bias."
See Geyl's "The National State and the Writers of Netherlands history," in Pieter Geyl, Debates with Historians (Groningen: J. B. Wolters, 1955), 203-224.
See also Benedict Anderson, Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism, rev. ed. (London: Verso, 2006). Addresses many of the same points and in greater detail.
Canada neither existed as a nationalist entity nor fought against the United States in 1812. The United States and Britain fought that war.
It seems to me that not only Koreans but also especially Canadians and indeed many others might do well to listen to Geyl and heed his advice...
In any case, another poster asked me for these refs via pm. If s/he is reading this thread, these are the refs I mentioned to you. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
What a sad little country this can be sometimes.
Sorry to the Prof who got axed, you have my respect. I'm sure being fired is going to be a blessing in disguise for you. |
Is that the one from BYU? |
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Mashimaro
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: location, location
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| ed4444 wrote: |
If he was an excellent teacher they would have been satisfied after warning him that he wasn't going to embarass them again.
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He was a good enough teacher to work there the previous 6 years. His student evaluations were also good.
Last edited by Mashimaro on Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Mashimaro wrote: |
| ed4444 wrote: |
| If he was an excellent teacher they would have been satisfied after warning him that he wasn't going to embarass them again. |
He was a good enough teacher to work their the previous 6 years. His student evaluations were also good. |
This school employed him as an EFL Instructor, right? Not a professor of East Asian history or Japanese-Korean relations, right?
Why assume such a high-profile position when it was not necessary and not even in his job description? You know what they say about the nail that stands up, no?
I mention this because, at my own university, we post the most notable of the students' anonymous comments on us history and political science professors and grad students. And students are increasingly impatient with professors who politicize material and consciously attempt to indoctrinate them on this or that issue.
One of them went very much like this, and I would wager a billion dollars that I know exactly who it was meant for: "We know you know a lot and that you have opinions that you are proud of. But please keep them to yourself and just teach us the material."
Another claims to have filed a report with a law-enforcement agency.
I also recall reading a Max Weber article comparing and contrasting American and German social sciences professors and grad students (of his time) -- "Science as a Vocation." It was actually not an article but a transcribed speaking engagment. He had been asked to address a group of people and offer advice on a range of issues.
One of the biggest sins he seemed to imagine was when a teacher made a conscious effort to make his or her politics known. I wholly agree. I think, though, that I am very much in a minority on this.
In any case, if I am a foreign teacher employed in Korea, I am not going to openly discuss such a polemical, emotional issue as this one, an issue which has seen, if I recall, people cutting their fingers off in protest, among other idiocies.
So this guy sounds guilty of not knowing how to keep a low-profile while living and working in someone else's land and society. But quite a few people here in South Korea take that attitude, no? So many here just itch to resist and fight "the system."
Ultimately, however, this is a simple matter to understand: Dokdo is an issue that Japanese and Koreans need to work out between themselves. If they do, great. If not, not. Either way, not our business. |
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Young FRANKenstein
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Location: Castle Frankenstein (that's FRONKensteen)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Dokdo is an issue that Japanese and Koreans need to work out between themselves. If they do, great. If not, not. Either way, not our business. |
I have been asked by a few students in the past what I think about Dokdo. I just say "I don't care. I'm not Korean or Japanese, so it's not my business nor my problem."
Privately, I use the term Liancourt Rocks. I will use it until such time as the Dokdo/Takeshima issue is resolved, if ever. I refuse to give one side more legitimacy than the other by using their terminology. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Young FRANKenstein wrote: |
| ...I do wish he would compile it together and publish it in an academic paper to give it legitimacy. |
Do you think that academic gate-keepers (anonymous referees and editors, for example) would consider this research original and worth taking the time to read? Does this writer get into Japanese and Korean diplomatic archives and access Japanese- and Korean-language sources some of us could not read ourselves? or is this research little more than a collection of well-thought out summaries of already-published secondary-source information? or worse: a collection of op-ed "Dokdo-according-to-me!" writings based on this writers impressions as a guy living in Korea?
Where is his literature review? Where has he shown how what he has to say makes a significant contribution to the professional literature treating Japanese-Korean relations? Where does what he is saying fit into or change what we already think we know?
Failing to answer these questions generally indicates that it would simply not make the cut in any journal or academic press... |
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Mashimaro
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: location, location
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Failing to answer these questions generally indicates that it would simply not make the cut in any journal or academic press... |
As opposed to Koreans view to the contrary? What makes the Korean case so academically valid? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mashimaro wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| Failing to answer these questions generally indicates that it would simply not make the cut in any journal or academic press... |
As opposed to Koreans view to the contrary? What makes the Korean case so academically valid? |
Mashimaro: I do not know you and I do not believe that you know me. So let's not get off on the wrong foot.
Your question suggests that you think that I am overlooking something. Help me understand what this is and I will address it.
That being said, from what I see above, you seem to think that I am validating the Koreans' case. I am not. My own opinion is that nationalism at this level transcends the absurd. A good friend who is a leading member of the new so-called "world history movement" (this is young; dating only back to the 1980s), now retired, once lived in South Korea on an exchange program for a year, interacting with counterpart academics. He and I, having this common experience, joke about how easy it is to make Koreans go apoplectic: just say "Sea of Japan..."
But, this notwithstanding, I can confidently report to you that East Asian history, U.S.-East Asian relations, and Japanese-Korean relations, to name just a few, are certainly important fields in academe. Some, like Hodgson and after him, Frank, have recentered world history on China.
We do try to harness as many perspectives as possible, including parochial views on any given issue, like this present one.
But is "Dokdo," per se, an issue that anyone in American universities cares about? Not from where I stand. There are far more important issues to treat. The only place were I have ever even heard about "Dokdo" was in a Korean movie theater while I lived there, from many Koreans who seem to obsess on the issue, and on this board, where many of us "foreigners" discuss and try to understand it...
Last edited by Gopher on Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:05 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Mashimaro wrote: |
| ed4444 wrote: |
| If he was an excellent teacher they would have been satisfied after warning him that he wasn't going to embarass them again. |
He was a good enough teacher to work their the previous 6 years. His student evaluations were also good. |
This school employed him as an EFL Instructor, right? Not a professor of East Asian history or Japanese-Korean relations, right?
Why assume such a high-profile position when it was not necessary and not even in his job description? You know what they say about the nail that stands up, no?
I mention this because, at my own university, we post the most notable of the students' anonymous comments on us history and political science professors and grad students. And students are increasingly impatient with professors who politicize material and consciously attempt to indoctrinate them on this or that issue.
One of them went very much like this, and I would wager a billion dollars that I know exactly who it was meant for: "We know you know a lot and that you have opinions that you are proud of. But please keep them to yourself and just teach us the material."
Another claims to have filed a report with a law-enforcement agency.
I also recall reading a Max Weber article comparing and contrasting American and German social sciences professors and grad students (of his time) -- "Science as a Vocation." It was actually not an article but a transcribed speaking engagment. He had been asked to address a group of people and offer advice on a range of issues.
One of the biggest sins he seemed to imagine was when a teacher made a conscious effort to make his or her politics known. I wholly agree. I think, though, that I am very much in a minority on this.
In any case, if I am a foreign teacher employed in Korea, I am not going to openly discuss such a polemical, emotional issue as this one, an issue which has seen, if I recall, people cutting their fingers off in protest, among other idiocies.
So this guy sounds guilty of not knowing how to keep a low-profile while living and working in someone else's land and society. But quite a few people here in South Korea take that attitude, no? So many here just itch to resist and fight "the system."
Ultimately, however, this is a simple matter to understand: Dokdo is an issue that Japanese and Koreans need to work out between themselves. If they do, great. If not, not. Either way, not our business. |
What difference does it make what is side-interests are?
And, you're dead wrong. Dokdo is an issue of interest to those to whom it is a matter of interest. Sooner or later an American or British professor is going to take an interest in the matter and when he researches the matter and concludes that Korea has no pre-1950s history with Dokdo it will be time for the whole nation to be offended again.
I suppose a Korean living in Canada who has an interest in Arctic soveriegnty should refrain from writing about it because it's a matter that the US and Canada need to work out between themselves? Take a close look at how moronic your last statement sounds. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Mashimaro wrote: |
| ed4444 wrote: |
| If he was an excellent teacher they would have been satisfied after warning him that he wasn't going to embarass them again. |
He was a good enough teacher to work their the previous 6 years. His student evaluations were also good. |
This school employed him as an EFL Instructor, right? Not a professor of East Asian history or Japanese-Korean relations, right?
Why assume such a high-profile position when it was not necessary and not even in his job description? You know what they say about the nail that stands up, no?
I mention this because, at my own university, we post the most notable of the students' anonymous comments on us history and political science professors and grad students. And students are increasingly impatient with professors who politicize material and consciously attempt to indoctrinate them on this or that issue.
One of them went very much like this, and I would wager a billion dollars that I know exactly who it was meant for: "We know you know a lot and that you have opinions that you are proud of. But please keep them to yourself and just teach us the material."
Another claims to have filed a report with a law-enforcement agency.
I also recall reading a Max Weber article comparing and contrasting American and German social sciences professors and grad students (of his time) -- "Science as a Vocation." It was actually not an article but a transcribed speaking engagment. He had been asked to address a group of people and offer advice on a range of issues.
One of the biggest sins he seemed to imagine was when a teacher made a conscious effort to make his or her politics known. I wholly agree. I think, though, that I am very much in a minority on this.
In any case, if I am a foreign teacher employed in Korea, I am not going to openly discuss such a polemical, emotional issue as this one, an issue which has seen, if I recall, people cutting their fingers off in protest, among other idiocies.
So this guy sounds guilty of not knowing how to keep a low-profile while living and working in someone else's land and society. But quite a few people here in South Korea take that attitude, no? So many here just itch to resist and fight "the system."
Ultimately, however, this is a simple matter to understand: Dokdo is an issue that Japanese and Koreans need to work out between themselves. If they do, great. If not, not. Either way, not our business. |
Maybe so, but that argument only has some worth in an open and free society. |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Mashimaro wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Failing to answer these questions generally indicates that it would simply not make the cut in any journal or academic press... |
As opposed to Koreans view to the contrary? What makes the Korean case so academically valid? |
Koreans' view... Do you mean next door Chulsoo and Younghee's or specialized Korean historians' at universities? Did you actually read about documented Korean claims by the academics? I'm just curious. |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| doggyji wrote: |
| Koreans' view... Do you mean next door Chulsoo and Younghee's or specialized Korean historians' at universities? Did you actually read about documented Korean claims by the academics? I'm just curious. |
What academics? Do you mean the academics at the Dokdo museum? |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
| doggyji wrote: |
| Koreans' view... Do you mean next door Chulsoo and Younghee's or specialized Korean historians' at universities? Did you actually read about documented Korean claims by the academics? I'm just curious. |
What academics? Do you mean the academics at the Dokdo museum? |
You mean there's no official publications by university historians about it? I'm just asking. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Mashimaro wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
Failing to answer these questions generally indicates that it would simply not make the cut in any journal or academic press... |
As opposed to Koreans view to the contrary? What makes the Korean case so academically valid? |
Probably Japan and South Korea make equally strong (or weak, depending on how you see it) arguments for the possession of Dokdo/Takeshima (as it's been pointed out over at the Marmot's Hole, prior to the 20th century nations weren't interested in mineral rights. They were concerned with what lay above ground, namely inhabitants who could be taxed...Rocks such as Dokdo were therefore of little interest to them). The only relevant historical basis for a claim is that Korea has held Dokdo for the past 50 years. It is theirs. End of story. Once people on both sides of the debate will come to realize this, they'll understand that dredging up ancient history will not change the fact that it couldn't be any more or less Korean than it already is.
Last edited by Hollywoodaction on Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:50 am; edited 2 times in total |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| doggyji wrote: |
| You mean there's no official publications by university historians about it? I'm just asking. |
There is lots of stuff on the web or at the Dokdo Museum (which also has a web presence), there is also the Korean Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, supposedly written by qualified people. It is those things that Gerry was debunking. |
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