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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| The only relevant historical basis for a claim is that Korea has held Dokdo for the past 50 years. It is theirs. End of story... |
Uti posseditus...?
That is how international law has worked since 1500. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
| There is lots of stuff on the web or at the Dokdo Museum (which also has a web presence), there is also the Korean Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, supposedly written by qualified people. It is those things that Gerry was debunking. |
Again, then, this is not academics but politics.
Are the lines between the two blurred? Yes. But there are clearly points and positions that without a doubt fall on one or the other side. And if "Gerry" was indeed aiming to debunk those who were producing the information you cite above, then Gerry was not participating in scholarly inquiry but rather a very bitter political fight.
Why would he do that when he was dependent on his host country's goodwill...? |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| shakuhachi wrote: |
| There is lots of stuff on the web or at the Dokdo Museum (which also has a web presence), there is also the Korean Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade, supposedly written by qualified people. It is those things that Gerry was debunking. |
Again, then, this is not academics but politics.
Are the lines between the two blurred? Yes. But there are clearly points and positions that without a doubt fall on one or the other side. And if "Gerry" was indeed aiming to debunk those who were producing the information you cite above, then Gerry was not participating in scholarly inquiry but rather a very bitter political fight.
Why would he do that when he was dependent on his host country's goodwill...? |
How are politics and academics (history) not mixed in this? Is Korea not trying to make an historical claim to Dokdo? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| How are politics and academics (history) not mixed in this? Is Korea not trying to make an historical claim to Dokdo? |
Who exactly is making the claim? Name names and positions. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| How are politics and academics (history) not mixed in this? Is Korea not trying to make an historical claim to Dokdo? |
Who exactly is making the claim? Name names and positions. |
Um, the very government video in question is making that claim, is it not? So is the Dokdo Museum. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Um, the very government video in question is making that claim, is it not? So is the Dokdo Museum. |
All administrations and each political party take the same stance? The Dokdo Museum represents "the academy" in South Korea?
Who in the government? Who at the Dokdo Museum?
Anybody else?
Let's go back to this question...
| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Is Korea not trying to make an historical claim to Dokdo? |
Use and abuse of history. Does not mean that their use of history to serve their governmental ends relates to professional academic investigations and research priorities... |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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I came across a thread on another forum about this matter.
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=102492
Some nonsense comments and some good points. It seems some people from occidentalism even made new accounts and joined in the thread.
At least, I have good respect for Gerry Bevers just for using his real name and as far as I know, he doesn't seem to be a pawn for Matt(Shakuhachi)'s anti-Korean passion.  I just wish he could've done more balanced research. He only tried to find any possible fallacies in the Korean claims, just overlooking the Japanese argument's weakness. So here, this is what I found for specific counter-arguments to Gerry's findings. Did anybody already 'debunk' them? 
http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/DokdoWedgie.htm
http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/DokdoWedgie02.htm
http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/DokdoWedgie03.htm
I wish they made it all in English. On one of the pages, the writer says s/he will translate all within this year. Then, let's see how those who are already jumping around shouting "Stupid Koreans! I knew it! Give it to Japan already!" will take that. At least, we got some people here who are fluent in Korean.
Also here's an informative English site, which seems to be run by an American. It mainly supports Korea's claim.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| doggyji wrote: |
I came across a thread on another forum about this matter.
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=102492
Some nonsense comments and some good points. It seems some people from occidentalism even made new accounts and joined in the thread.
At least, I have good respect for Gerry Bevers just for using his real name and as far as I know, he doesn't seem to be a pawn for Matt(Shakuhachi)'s anti-Korean passion. I just wish he could've done more balanced research. He only tried to find any possible fallacies in the Korean claims, just overlooking the Japanese argument's weakness. So here, this is what I found for specific counter-arguments to Gerry's findings. Did anybody already 'debunk' them?
http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/DokdoWedgie.htm
http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/DokdoWedgie02.htm
http://dokdo.naezip.net/Dokdo/DokdoWedgie03.htm
I wish they made it all in English. On one of the pages, the writer says s/he will translate all within this year. Then, let's see how those who are already jumping around shouting "Stupid Koreans! I knew it! Give it to Japan already!" will take that. At least, we got some people here who are fluent in Korean.
Also here's an informative English site, which seems to be run by an American. It mainly supports Korea's claim.
http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com |
Doggyi, is there anyone saying "Stupid Koreans! I knew it! Give it to Japan already!"? Seems like a strawman argument to me. Most of the people commenting at Occidentalism have realistic expectations about "dokdo" and never expect it to be returned to Japan. However, it is still important to learn the truth about it, or it will be used to bash Japan with, not to mention continue to be an annoying topic for conversation.
As for the sites you have linked, the 1st one will be answered in time (you cant expect Gerry to answer a site he has never seen before), and the second one does not allow comments to tell him where he is wrong.
Besides, the topic is not the relative merits of each side of the debate, but whether debate itself is permissible. I would like to know where you stand on that, Doggyi. I also want to know if you roll with www.dokdo-takeshima.com's Steve Barber and his friends at the "Kill Jap cafe" (the people that caused him to lose his job). |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| shakuhachi wrote: |
| Doggyi, is there anyone saying "Stupid Koreans! I knew it! Give it to Japan already!"? Seems like a strawman argument to me. Most of the people commenting at Occidentalism have realistic expectations about "dokdo" and never expect it to be returned to Japan. However, it is still important to learn the truth about it, or it will be used to bash Japan with, not to mention continue to be an annoying topic for conversation. |
Ok, "Stupid Koreans! I knew it! Give it to Japan already!" was a bit of an exaggeration, at least when it comes only to the people here on Dave's. (I think people here tend to use much less blatant hateful remarks against Koreans than on occidentalism comments. Maybe because of the mods and racism/anti-Koreanism police posters.) From what I have read, however, there certainly were people who said something along the lines of "All truth revealed now. Korea stands no chance if the rule of justice is applied." after checking out the occidentalism site. I have to wonder if they have thoroughly checked what Korea's claim is and what they can say about Gerry's attempts before giving the verdict of their own. This whole thing tells us translation into English is what matters. No matter what Koreans discuss among themselves, most non-Koreans are obviously blind and deaf about it.
FYI, honestly I'm not sure which side got better arguments yet. It's a really complicated matter and now whoever says whatever, it's hard to totally swallow it.
| Shakuhachi wrote: |
| As for the sites you have linked, the 1st one will be answered in time (you cant expect Gerry to answer a site he has never seen before), and the second one does not allow comments to tell him where he is wrong. |
Maybe you can make a post or two about what you or Gerry think is wrong with their arguments to make your site richer. IMHO, if you want to mention about the sites I have linked on your site, you should not just post selectively about what wrong points they made, ignoring anything you or Gerry cannot refute, but the whole points they made. Then it will be quite wholesome. Also, this is the free board where you can post your comments about it.
| Quote: |
| 혹, 이견(異見)이 있으신분은 게시판에 글 남겨 주시기 바랍니다. 응답해 드리겠습니다. |
http://dokdo.naezip.net/board.htm
| Shakuhachi wrote: |
| Besides, the topic is not the relative merits of each side of the debate, but whether debate itself is permissible. I would like to know where you stand on that, Doggyi. I also want to know if you roll with www.dokdo-takeshima.com's Steve Barber and his friends at the "Kill Jap cafe" (the people that caused him to lose his job). |
If the university's decision to get him laid off was solely because of his 'research' about Dokdo/Takeshima, then I'm very sorry about that. And I have no contribution to the "Enjoyjapan Anti-Japanese Database Cafe". Such "databased" sites specifically to debunk the others' arguments are what 'those Japanese' have been pretty enthusiastic about, aren't they?
Btw, you have never been to Korea or just never 'lived' there? |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Maybe you can make a post or two about what you or Gerry think is wrong with their arguments to make your site richer. IMHO, if you want to mention about the sites I have linked on your site, you should not just post selectively about what wrong points they made, ignoring anything you or Gerry cannot refute, but the whole points they made. Then it will be quite wholesome. Smile Also, this is the free board where you can post your comments about it. |
Doggyi, on the comments section of Occidentalism there are plenty of people giving their opinions. The comments run into the hundreds, and one post has over 1000 comments worth of debate. People like Steve Barber from the site you linked also commented there. Also, suggesting that we would ignore any points is the same as saying we have already done so. Have we?
| Quote: |
| http://dokdo.naezip.net/board.htm |
No, I am not going to bother debating in Korean, and anyway, I was talking about the dokdo-takeshima site not having a comments section. Gerry has asked him directly to open his site to comments, but he has not done so.
| Quote: |
| Btw, you have never been to Korea or just never 'lived' there? |
Just never lived there, if it matters.
BTW, the Korean strategy for debating Dokdo is to present a map or document, and say "look, this is Dokdo!!!". That forces you to look at the map or document carefully, which takes time. Eventually, you are able to check the positioning on the map, and it never matches the location of Dokdo, nor is the name of the island Dokdo. Also, the island they say it Dokdo is in the approximate position of Jukdo or Kwaneumdo. For documents they say "look, a reference to Dokdo!". Then you look and read carefully (in old Chinese) and find that it says there are 80 families living on the island - so it cant be Dokdo.
I have seen many maps and documents (dozens) that Koreans claim prove Dokdo belongs to Korea, and not even one does. Korea's claim is made difficult by the fact that not only can they not prove they ever considered Dokdo part of their territory, but they cannot even prove they knew of Dokdo's existence.
Now, you are suggesting an inherent bias at Occidentalism, but at least people with dissenting opinions are allowed to express themselves. May I also suggest that you have a bias based on your blood connection to Korea? Perhaps you should go back and read Gerry's posts carefully. |
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shakuhachi
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: |
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The Korea Times has written about the story.
| Quote: |
College English Teacher Claims Job Loss Over Dokdo Comments
By Park Chung-a
Staff Reporter
Gerry Bevers
An American English instructor at a Korean university claimed he was not rehired because of his views on Dokdo, the disputed islets between Korea and Japan, which Tokyo calls Takeshima, in an interview with the Korea Times last week.
``I was informed late last month that my university would not be rehiring me as an English instructor due to my views on Dokdo,�� said 51-year-old Gerry Bevers. Bevers has been working as an English instructor at Gachon University of Medicine and Science for the past six years. His one-year contract was renewed every year _ until this year.
The e-mail he received from the department head informing him of the decision was sent to him on Dec. 23.
It read: `` This morning, at a meeting attended by the president and the deans of the school, your contract problem was discussed, and it was decided that your contract would not be renewed. I think there is little doubt that the school made this decision because of the Dokdo problem. It also hurts me to have to relay this news.��
Since mid-August of last year, Bevers has been writing a series of articles on Dokdo. In them, he expresses his view on the islets based on his own research. They are titled ``Lies, Half-truths and Dokdo Video�� and are available at www.occidentalism.org, a blog run by an Australian.
One of his articles posted on the Web site reads: ``There are no Korean maps or documents before 1905 that refers to any island in the Sea of Japan as `Dokdo,� including the 1900 Korean Imperial Proclamation mentioned by the American law professor. Therefore, every time the video claims that a Korean map or document says `Dokdo,� you will know that it is a lie.��
Bevers also runs his own blog, titled ``Korean Language Notes,�� on which he also posts his views on Korean history.
In early November, the university announced an open recruitment system for new English instructors. The university needed to hire more teachers when it transformed into four-year university from a two-year college last year.
As a result, Bevers had to reapply for the position.
The dean of planning had told him that since he was a good teacher, he should not worry about the recruitment process, and the interview for getting rehired was just a formality, according to Bevers.
Not long after the announcement, he was called to the president�s office in mid-November. He thought the meeting was about his job, but it wasn�t. The president said that someone who saw Bevers� writings on the Internet complained to the president, saying that it�s improper to hire such teacher in a school whose motto is ``Humanity, Service and Patriotism.��
``The president told me that I should stop writing about Dokdo on the Internet,�� Bevers said about his meeting with the university president. ``He gave me a history book that I appreciated. I told him that I wouldn�t write any more.��
Bevers had an interview with the rehiring committee at the end of November.
About a month later, he was informed that he would not be rehired.
To find out the reason for the school�s decision, he went to the office of one of the administrators from the school from the rehiring committee. Bevers secretly recorded a conversation with the administrator, because he thought he might have to sue the school.
In the recording, the administrator said that although he had no problem with his teaching skills, the school�s dean of planning had said that the ``Dokdo problem is too great�� to rehire him and other members from the committee agreed.
``I realized that Dokdo is a sensitive issue in Korea, but has it become so sensitive that people cannot even freely discuss it?�� he said. ``The motto of my university is `Humanity, Service and Patriotism.� But is it patriotic for a university to censure free speech or punish people who have a different opinion?��
Choi Mi-ri, the dean of planning of the university, flatly denied Bevers� claim, saying that his view on Dokdo was not the reason the school refused to rehire him.
``Although we like Gerry very much, there were so many other good teachers who applied for the position. We made a decision based on objective evaluation on his teaching skills. As our school expanded, we thought it was time for a change,�� Choi said.
The administrator from the school, who was recorded by Bevers, refused to comment.
Bevers said that it is his hobby to study and debate on Korean history, including Dokdo issue.
``About two years ago, when anti-Japanese sentiment was at its peak in Korean society, I happened to come across the book by Korean Professor Kim Byung-ryul, which was about the Japanese side of the story on Dokdo. It was different from the Korean side. Since then, I started to research on my own to learn more about the issue and posted my thoughts on Internet hoping I could discuss it openly with people,�� he said. `` I have lived almost half of my life in Korea. I love the culture. I love the language. I love the people. Just because I disagree on Dokdo, I don�t think that makes me an anti-Korean, which a lot of people assume.��
Bevers said that although he told the president of the school that he would not write about Dokdo anymore on the Internet in November�s meeting, as he was not rehired, he doesn�t feel the need to abide by what he said and hence restarted to write on the issue a few days ago.
Bevers first came to Korea in 1977, when he was in the U.S navy.
He then went back to the United States and earned a degree in Korean language and literature from the University of Hawaii.
He has spent most of his life in Korea since then, working at joint-venture companies, Asiana Airlines and several universities.
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