Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Paji eh Wong]

As a way of addressing Brobby's point, why differentiate between school, business, and personal life? I would portend that someone who cheats in one arena will cheat in the others. I think looking in other arenas for proof is valid. In business, Transparency International ranks Korea 46th in the world on their corruption perception index (scroll down).

By my definition, Koreans struggle with integrity. And while they may or may not see it, they suffer for their lapses. So do we. It's the high cost of low trust.

This post kind of sucks. I'm tired.

The books look interesting. I've added them to my amazon wish list.

A quibble. I did my undergrad in psych, and I'd never heard of comparitive psychology. According to the APA "Comparative psychologists study the behavior of humans and other animals, with a special eye on similarities and differences that may shed light on evolutionary and developmental processes." Wrong usage.

[billybrobby]

To the OP, I do apologize for not having read the articles, it's a blatant handicap, I know. But I'm just playing devil's advocate and asking for proof. If those articles have statistics about cheating in East Asian schools as compared to America schools, then post them.

[billybrobby]

Thinking about this further, I realize that maybe I should just be quiet if I haven't read the articles. The thing is, I just worry that a lot of other people on this thread haven't read the articles either but are just inclined to agree with them sight unseen based upon their own prejudices. The funny thing is, I'm actually inclined to agree with the original premise. I just think we should be careful jumping to conclusions if we're not all working with the same set of facts.

[Gamecock]

[stevemcgarrett]

billybrobby:

Don't be too hard on yourself. I welcome further comment after you've had a chance to read one or more of the books. They are a unique compilation of research studies. What is woefully lacking, however, are studies conducted by East Asian researchers on their own cultures but that situation is beginning to change.

Paji:

I'm not familiar with that "transparency" weblink. I'll check it out.

Comparative psychology is the precise term to describe the phenomenon I'm referring to. Another emerging field is cultural psychology (re: Michael Cole). No offense, but a baccalaureate in psychology and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee at a diner.

Gamecock:

Interesting response: what you describe is further indication of face-saving. East Asians have an incredible (from a Western viewpoint) ability to "look the other way" at obvious signs of irony and hypocrisy.

And to admit to what billybrobby pointed out, our prejudices can get in the way of our better judgment. All research has bias, despite what many who conduct it believe otherwise.

My own prejudice is that East Asians have very little sense of fairness and fairplay compared to Westerners, which also partly explains the rampant dishonesty in education.

[Adventurer]

So, you are saying for some Asians it isn't a crime or dishonesty unless you are caught? I am not sure how far that goes, though? Most Korean students I had didn't cheat were they very different. I don't remember seeing maybe one or two cheat which shocked me because I used to public school kids back in some school districts in the states cheating like it was going out of style.

[stevemcgarrett]

Adventurer:

I'd like to respond but I can't decipher your post.

[Hollywoodaction]

[stevenpa]

[Adventurer]

[rothkowitz]

I'd hazard to say that he's saying it's of little or no consequence to them.

If they are punished eg DQed yes,they'd be bothered.Otherwise,no.Not much real compunction towards it,similar to say avoiding tax, not coming through on a deal when they heard of a better option etc,etc.

They might have the same regard in the west to it as,say,the everyday stealing that goes on if you have room mates or are flatting,pilfering the staff fridge etc.

Not quite the same though.

The western examples are examples of "poor form",whereas with the Korean examples I don't think anyone would feel primarily aggrieved.They may even have a twinge of envy or regret that they weren't able to or didn't think of doing the same thing themselves.

[Young FRANKenstein]

[stevemcgarrett]

Aloha to all posters thus far:

At the risk of pandering and patronizing, I want to send out a big mahalo (thanks) for staying on point and adding to my understanding of this apparently complex cultural phenomenon.

stevenpa:

[Adventurer]

[rothkowitz]

Probably just Uni-politics related.

At any rate,the Dean said that there was no plagiarism in that the original ideas were his and developed under his supervision,thus it was fine for him to quote at will.

Are Koreans getting tougher on cheating?I think perhaps they're somewhat strict already.A student at my HS taking the Uni exam for the second time was disqualified because he took a call from his Mum after being explicitly told no phones allowed.

Has the deans behaviour NOT happened in the West?I'm not so sure,but I don't thinka prof or lecturer in the west would be so dismissive about it.

As for Dr.Hwang or whatever title he has now....how could it go on unchecked for so long?Doesn't that betray some kind of culture at work?The lack of contrition is pretty revealing as well.I can't really answer though to what extent these attitudes are entrenched.

One last thought.It's typical in the west to lie,cheat,steal,manipulate et al to whatever degree to get into the social group that we want to be in.At least for those for whom this is a vital thing.

I think Korea is more pronounced in it's classism and it's buying and selling of influence.Where is being "academically honest" going to help someone.Do they put an intrinsic value upon study?No,it's linked to the jockeying for social position.

If this seems unfair,when was the last time you heard a Korean student say they were going to to to Uni to "find themselves" or "discover what they want to do"?

Never.

Studying is strictly work,if not for the student,then definitely for Manager Mum.The truly useless children get 'sent overseas'for an indefinite period.

Anyways.The point remains that Koreans have a pretty blase attitude to propriety in these matters.

Attendance,marks,class placement,"reputation" etc etc and meeting those demands is less important than having the so-called proof of it in their hot little hand.

For me I'd know.

For them,it's besides the point.