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liehtzu
Joined: 24 Mar 2003
Location: the sticks, Korea
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 Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Sigh. My two cents:
I get the impression that the work and pay in Korea is better - Japan seems to demand quite a bit for lesser rewards. I haven't taught in Japan, but I think I'm going to hop on over and see what's available. I've been to Japan twice: two weeks in Osaka, and a couple days for the visa run in Fukuoka. Thus my impressions are limited. I've spent two years in Korea: 2002-2003 and now, and have a pretty good idea of the place.
Korea can be nice. I've had good times here, but when I was in Osaka a few years ago with a friend of mine and we joked that we could write a book on why Japan beats Korea. When stacked up together, Japan gets relatively few demerits. The prices are higher in Japan, but that gap is closing. Korea's far more expensive than it was when I was here three years ago - I can't believe how much I have to pay for a bag of oranges now. Certain things, like transport, remain far less expensive in Korea; on the whole, though, it's not such a stretch anymore.
Japan has varieties of styles: from schoolgirls to salarymen to skate punks with facial piercings. Korea is extremely unifrom in comparison. Because Japanese have had a far longer length of time being rich and exposed to Western culture I got the impression that - though like Korea it is mostly a herd mentality - there are more folks who think outside the box. And as someone mentioned earlier, there are people in Japan who know who Lou Reed is. Lou Reed! Fricking Koreans haven't a clue. There's a music scene in Japan. Bands tour there. Who comes to Korea? We may get The Eagles now and then.
Japan, along with China, was what first really got me interested in Asia (whereas when I first came to Korea I knew relatively little about it). I think of the great names of Japan for me, as someone with an interest in literature and film: Basho, Ryokan, Shikibu, Kawabata, Mishima, Abe, Oe, Tanizaki, Kurosawa, Naruse, Ozu, Mizoguchi, Imamura, Shinoda, Teshigahara, etc. Although it is due no doubt to a dearth of English translation, the only Korean writer I know is Yi Moon-yol.
Also, unlike Korea and China, it seems to me that because Japanese development has been over a longer term (whereas Korea and China very recently just exploded) a lot more of the traditional culture has been retained. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that although there's a lot of comic books, Hello Kitty, vacant pop music, and pachinko parlors (things for kids and grown-up kids) there are still pockets of preserved culture. Korea and China seem to jettison all the traditional stuff in their mad dash for the latest new, to prove how high-tech they've become. In China and Korea the great, glorious thousands of years of history they always boast about seems to be relegated entirely to period soap operas on TV.
Japanese are more reserved; Koreans bottle it in, too, but are more inclined to passionate, raving outbursts (esp after soju). This less-stringent social formality in Korea is a two-sided coin. In my two weeks in Japan I had a great time, but I didn't really talk to any Japanese. The only folks who talked to me there were a group of wide-eyed schoolgirls glad that they'd finally found a foreigner who could help them with their school survey. Afterwards we all took a group photo and it was fun - otherwise the Japanese were pretty cool characters. Immediately after returning to Korea I was in a restaurant in the bus station eating my kimchichigae and the old ladies, surprised to see a white guy in there, were kind of grinning over my table. One of the old ladies asks me, "Mashisoyo?" and I assured her that it was indeed delicious. Now this sort of thing annoys alot of folks here, and on many given days it would annoy me, but after two weeks in ultrapolite Japan I actually appreciated the show of lack of decorum. Mostly, though, I do not.
Now, admitting that I've only spent a brief time in Japan, I will say that I met a lot of foreigners there and none of them were absolute losers. Not a one. I have met so many bloody insane or bizarre foreigners here it's incredible. Perhaps because Japan has more stringent standards? I meet people in Korea all the time who I think would have trouble holding down a part-time job at 7-11 back home. There are times when I think I understand why Koreans have a low opinion of us. So many people here are just plain weird.
Speaking of low opinions, I think it's also quite likely that a) It's possible to find a terrific Japanese girl outside of Tokyo who doesn't care that you're not Japanese, and b) you could go out with said girl to a bar in a city that's not the capital and not be stared at in disgust and/or have your date insulted by the local males. Just my guess about Japan, but I know very well that in most mid-size cities in Korea a woman would rather eat splintered glass than go out with a non-Korean and face total ostracism and rampant whispered gossip.
My Japan feelings are, as of now, based on limited impressions and speculation, and there's only one way to really find out. So Japan it is! One and a half more months in Korea for me, baby, and a big sayonara to it. I'll take the less pay in Japan, I don't give a damn about being poor. If I wanted to work in a place I didn't like much solely for the cash I'd stay in the States. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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OP:
Very interesting and informative thread, I must say.
taobenli:
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And yes, the Koreans are MUCH better at English than Japanese. Many people will laugh at this, but it's simply true. The school systems are both mind-numbing, but Koreans have a drive to succeed that I didn't see in a lot of my Japanese students. Japan is often described as "postmodern," with all the alienation and "what's the point of it all?" that comes with that. Korea is still solidly modern (so many people have said "It's like the 1950s here") and so you get inane questions, but the people are more lively, somehow.
I like both countries- I think Japan would be more comfortable to live in long-term, and for me Korea is just more interseting to study. I like Korean food better than Japanese (with a few exceptions) and like the Korean language better. |
Guess things cultural are relative to some degree. I could say the same thing, except replace "Korea" with "China" and "Japan" with "Korea." The only big disadvantages to teaching in China are the low salary (which isn't offset by the much lower cost-of-living) and of course the communist government.
liehtzu:
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| Now, admitting that I've only spent a brief time in Japan, I will say that I met a lot of foreigners there and none of them were absolute losers. |
With this admission, it's astounding how much you claim to know about Japan and by comparison, China. 
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| Also, unlike Korea and China, it seems to me that because Japanese development has been over a longer term (whereas Korea and China very recently just exploded) a lot more of the traditional culture has been retained. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that although there's a lot of comic books, Hello Kitty, vacant pop music, and pachinko parlors (things for kids and grown-up kids) there are still pockets of preserved culture. Korea and China seem to jettison all the traditional stuff in their mad dash for the latest new, to prove how high-tech they've become. In China and Korea the great, glorious thousands of years of history they always boast about seems to be relegated entirely to period soap operas on TV. |
Congrats: this might be the single most uninformed statement I've read on any thread on this forum. Are you aware that many Japanese parents refer to their children as "aliens" because they don't recognize them. While there are some very modern, Westernized Chinese youth, the vast majority are far more traditional than what I've seen of youth in either Japan or Korea. For example, few Chinese girls drink or smoke in public and it's considered crude behavior for them to do so. Another example: even Chinese youth who wear Western fashions usually have qipaos and other traditional garb in their wardrobes. I could on and on but I'll wait for you to make a feeble attempt at a rebuttal before I lay it on thicker.
Last edited by stevemcgarrett on Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JZer
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| And yes, the Koreans are MUCH better at English than Japanese. Many people will laugh at this, but it's simply true. The school systems are both mind-numbing, but Koreans have a drive to succeed that I didn't see in a lot of my Japanese students. Japan is often described as "postmodern," with all the alienation and "what's the point of it all?" that comes with that. Korea is still solidly modern (so many people have said "It's like the 1950s here") and so you get inane questions, but the people are more lively, somehow. |
I have not taught in Japan but I don't know that the drive to succeed is the real reason that Koreans can speak English better. I think one very important reason is that the Korean alphabet contains most of the phonic sounds that are in the English alphabet. |
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fustiancorduroy
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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I will preface this by saying that my coming to Korea was total happenstance; in looking for a teaching job in Japan, I also applied for jobs in Korea, thinking "It is Asia, so why not?" I got more offers from Korea than Japan, and so here I am.
Admittedly, I am biased towards Japan: I studied Japanese language and history in university, and have had a longer-term fascination with their culture and way of life. And while I have grown to appreciate and (usually) enjoy my life in Korea, I feel I would be more fulfilled in Japan. Although I have spent only a total of eight days in Japan (four days each in Osaka and Fukuoka for visa runs), both times I was completely smitten (but this may be the aforementioned bias obfuscating my judgement).
Although Koreans are generally friendly, their directness and emotionality can be sometimes unnerving. Moreover, the outright hostility and discrimination (why are my won not good enough for your night club, sir?) make me despise Korea at times. Granted these perturbing incidents are largely offset by the lovealble quirkiness of Koreans, they are nevertheless disquieting enough to make me consider leaving Korea sooner rather than later.
As a previous poster mention, Japan has been a "contemporary" society for rather longer compared to Korea, making assimilation in Japan, in my opinion, much more facile and attainable. I can say that you are not at all likely to be stared at, ignored, or otherwise made to feel an "outsider," even though some Japanese may feel reluctant to associate with you, which segues into my next point - the Japanese are much more emotionally reserved. On the one hand, you are less likely to be angered or upset by a Japanese person; on the other hand, this reservation can make communication somewhat more difficult at times. If anything, you have to applaud Koreans' honesty.
Differences in social attitudes notwithstanding, Japan seems more intriguing to me. Perhaps this is due to my greater familiarity with their history, or maybe it is because Japanese are not ashamed of their past. Either way, virtually everthing about Japanese culture, from sumo wrestling to the cusine to kanji to Shintoism, captivates me more and makes me want to learn more about it than Korean culture. Really, the main issue precluding my ascention to Japan is the (given my relative lack of qualification) lower pay; if anything, I should be able to pay off a large portion of my tuition debt while in Korea.
So yes, Korea is nice enough mostly, but for me, Japan is the way to go. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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fustiancorduroy:
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| or maybe it is because Japanese are not ashamed of their past. |
Or maybe it's because Japanese like to whitewash their past.  |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| PRagic wrote: |
Mercury...
1) They are staring at you in Japan. YOU just can't sense it or see it.
2) Do you have your Ph.D.? They are not treating you like equals during your warm, fuzzy lunches. Again, you cannot percieve the subtlties. Even if they are treating you 'equally', rest assured that you are not considered on their level in the grand hierarchal order.
3) She paid? That is a common trend in Japan for girls with money when they keep a foreign boyfriend. It's a status thing. When they date Japanese men, the girls don't pay. Your relationship progressed. Congrats. It's not the norm.
Just a couple of insights IMHO. Drive on. Ignorance is bliss. |
Hilarious!
But pretty much true.
Foreign teachers at any school, and at any level, are not hired for what they know, They're hired for their faces. Bottom line. |
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liehtzu
Joined: 24 Mar 2003
Location: the sticks, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
liehtzu:
| Quote: |
| Now, admitting that I've only spent a brief time in Japan, I will say that I met a lot of foreigners there and none of them were absolute losers. |
With this admission, it's astounding how much you claim to know about Japan and by comparison, China.
| Quote: |
| Also, unlike Korea and China, it seems to me that because Japanese development has been over a longer term (whereas Korea and China very recently just exploded) a lot more of the traditional culture has been retained. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that although there's a lot of comic books, Hello Kitty, vacant pop music, and pachinko parlors (things for kids and grown-up kids) there are still pockets of preserved culture. Korea and China seem to jettison all the traditional stuff in their mad dash for the latest new, to prove how high-tech they've become. In China and Korea the great, glorious thousands of years of history they always boast about seems to be relegated entirely to period soap operas on TV. |
Congrats: this might be the single most uninformed statement I've read on any thread on this forum. Are you aware that many Japanese parents refer to their children as "aliens" because they don't recognize them. While there are some very modern, Westernized Chinese youth, the vast majority are far more traditional than what I've seen of youth in either Japan or Korea. For example, few Chinese girls drink or smoke in public and it's considered crude behavior for them to do so. Another example: even Chinese youth who wear Western fashions usually have qipaos and other traditional garb in their wardrobes. I could on and on but I'll wait for you to make a feeble attempt at a rebuttal before I lay it on thicker. |
Really, Sunshine? Have I truly uttered the single most uninformed statement ever to appear on Dave's? I'm thoroughly impressed with myself - but I'm more impressed with you! Your mother must be so proud to have such an informed baby boy. Glad you decided to include that eye-roll thing, too. What a forceful way to drive home your knowledge and my lack!
Now, leaving aside that when referring to Japan I said that these were my impressions based on limited observation (and reading, film, etc) and thus wasn't stating anything as God's Own Facts, what was it that stuck in your craw exactly? And did I say I'd never been to China? No, I've actually travelled around quite a bit, from frozen Tibetan towns to rice-paddy lowland villages to large cities under a cloud of construction dust (which, by the way, are packed with modern Chinese youth and new clubs going up all the time where young Chinese girls go to drink and smoke).
And a lot of Korean girls have hanbok in their closet, and Japanese girls kimono. So what?
I never said Japanese are more traditional than Chinese or Koreans. I said I think the Japanese have been better about retaining their history than, say, a country emerging from decades of "thought reform" where books were burned, teachers sent for "re-education" or killed, and the only culture allowed were songs, poems, plays, books, and films based on the teachings of the Great Leader and that has, since the 1980s, made a frenzied dash towards rampant capitalism without too terribly much consideration of the possible detrimental effects. There are newly-installed elevators that travel to the peaks of sacred Chinese mountains so the Chinese nouveaux riches don't sully their suits or break a high heel in the climb that people have been making for thousands of years. Ancient Tibetan temples are crowded with peddlers selling kitsch and tourists in matching color-coded hats. Centuries-old buildings are bulldozed to make way for new skyscrapers. Minority people are booted off their land or turned into a tourist attraction.
On the Chengdu to Guiyang express I met a Chinese doctor interested in the book I was reading, and surprised to find it was a translation of a Chinese writer he'd never heard of. The book was Gao Xingjian's "Soul Mountain," and Gao had won the Nobel Prize for literature a few years before. When I told him this he was floored. I think he thought I was lying, so I showed him where the words Winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature were printed on the front cover. Reason he'd never heard of the writer or the book? Because they're banned in China.
I could go on. But I wait in breathless anticipation for your wise rebuttal. Thank you, oh benevolent sage! |
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rothkowitz
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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On the subject(kinda)of Chinese schools,a friend of mine that works for a public school in HK recently went on a training excursion to Shenzen.He said that there is a state-appointed supervisor in EVERY class to ensure the teachers don't stray from the state curriculum.
Every lesson,every teacher...he kept checking.
No doubt classes with whitey in public schools would be the same,assuming they understood whitey,but then,it's a fair bet the average student wouldn't either.
Can you imagine the drudgery though...
Anyway,I liked his description of HK as "China Lite"  |
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MissSeoul
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere in America
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| liehtzu wrote: |
Now, admitting that I've only spent a brief time in Japan, I will say that I met a lot of foreigners there and none of them were absolute losers. Not a one. |
That's funny !
Did you ever read Japan forum ?
They call each other LOSER all the time.
By the way, you seem like ONE of LOSERS in Korea, seriously. |
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maya.the.bee
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:09 am Post subject: |
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Liehtzu, make sure to post an update once you get settled in Japan. I'm curious how it will live up to your expectations.
A couple of things:
| liehtzu wrote: |
Japan, along with China, was what first really got me interested in Asia (whereas when I first came to Korea I knew relatively little about it). I think of the great names of Japan for me, as someone with an interest in literature and film: Basho, Ryokan, Shikibu, Kawabata, Mishima, Abe, Oe, Tanizaki, Kurosawa, Naruse, Ozu, Mizoguchi, Imamura, Shinoda, Teshigahara, etc. Although it is due no doubt to a dearth of English translation, the only Korean writer I know is Yi Moon-yol. |
They're not banned, but nobody reads them. "Reading" means manga for the majority of the people you'll come in contact with in j-land.
| liehtzu wrote: |
| Immediately after returning to Korea I was in a restaurant in the bus station eating my kimchichigae and the old ladies, surprised to see a white guy in there, were kind of grinning over my table. One of the old ladies asks me, "Mashisoyo?" and I assured her that it was indeed delicious. |
It happens in Japan, just replace w/"oishi des ka"
Japan is fun though. The shin is expensive but whenever you feel the need to get away, hop on the train and try something different. |
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rothkowitz
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: |
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Kobo Abe,Mishima,Kurosawa et al...Is this perhaps something that Japanophiles(sp?) do outside of Japan and not whilst actually there?
Anyway,good luck.
Try to catch the "Romance Train".It's a train. |
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europe2seoul
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Location: Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:25 am Post subject: |
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| rothkowitz wrote: |
| Japanophiles(sp?) |
It funny how Japan has good PR in their foreign ministry, so when people "back in the West" mention asian culture, food - Asia they think Japan. And then they get all "into" it, to study, live by all this traditional "movie like" stuff. Its like so pathetic, considering that average Japanese don't care about those touristy things and just lives a normal life. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: |
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liehtzu:
Don't flatter yourself; I said it was the most uninformed statement on this forum, meaning the Korean Forum. 
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| are packed with modern Chinese youth and new clubs going up all the time where young Chinese girls go to drink and smoke |
Those are mostly KTV girls--there to make a living after migrating to the city from the countryside unable to find gainful employment.
Buy a vowel and get a clue. 
Again, you admit to having limited experience but feel compelled to defend your naivete. Now that's rich.
What's in my craw other than your presumptuous attitude? I am sick and tired of Japophiles comparing China to Japan and making the latter sound sweeter than roses. China is a developing country, as it's leaders openly admit, and there is a growing disparity between the rich and the poor, the urban and the rural sectors of the economy. That said, the number of people pulled out of poverty since the opening and reform began exceeds 400 million by conservative estimates. China's economy is still in transition from state socialist to market reform and this will take time. Every modern industrialized nation experienced the same transition, but at a slower pace.
Korean girls might have hanbok in their closet and Japanese girls their kimonos but guess what Pudd'n Head, lots of Chinese girls actually wear their qipaos.
| Quote: |
| I said I think the Japanese have been better about retaining their history |
Uh, o.k. I was referring to the atrocities they committed in Korea and China and Indo-China during colonialism and the Pacific War, not to their domestic history. Much of Japanese culture derives from China, by the way. You do know that much, don't you? As for your claim that the Cultural Revolution has nearly destroyed traditional Chinese culture, you couldn't be more wrong. I could enumerate, but why bother?
Those elevators--or do you mean chair lifts and cable cars?--also carry a disproportionate number of foreign tourists, or hadn't you noticed?
Now, who do you blame for the trinket traders at the historical attractions: the government or the merchants themselves? The goverment tried years ago to clear the merchants from Badaling's section of the Great Wall and were met with stiff resistance by local residents trying to eke out a living. You do, I hope, feel they are entitled to earn a living. I don't like the tacky displays, either, but how is it any worse than most places worldwide nowadays? And there are sections that have fewer if you bother to get off the beaten path.
As I reread your post, I'm wondering if you're not a sock for Richard Gere or something? 
Yes, I know all about that banned book. So that proves Chinese are distanced from their culture? You're really making a stretch there, Bubba.
Beijing has lost many of its hutongs, to be sure, but many were not worth saving. What appears quaint and interesting to travelers like you is hardly the case to people forced to live in them. If you'd ever lived in one or had friends who did, you'd know better than to say that.
I've visited minority homesteads near historical sites in many parts of Ningxia, Yunnan and Fujian and found most of the tourist attractions were operated by them.
You're trying oh-so-desperately to sound clued-in on China but it just isn't convincing.
And do tell me how this relates back to your original contention that China is losing its traditions. I'm waiting with bated breath. |
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Atavistic
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: How totally stupid that Korean doesn't show in this area.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:14 am Post subject: |
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Why teach in Korea rather than Japan? It's not Japan.
I hated my visa run. I missed the busy-ness of Seoul. I missed the street food and the noise and dodging traffic. And I couldn't read anything. And they do kimchi wrong. And everyone is TOO polite. Quit being polite, just let me buy stuff and GO.
Ugh. Bring on Seoul!
(Sometimes I wonder if Koreans stare because for a gajillion--technical number indeed--years they were run over north, south, and left of center by foreigners and it paid to pay attention to the people around you. THE WAYGOOKS ARE COMING!)
Last edited by Atavistic on Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:37 am; edited 2 times in total |
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rothkowitz
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by rothkowitz on Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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