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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| Hitler was cruel -- but also laid the groundwork for today's PETA-supporting vegetarians. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| I believe we've been down this road before...you post an article, people then ask you to clarify your opinion...you never do. |
Often I have given my position, but you've failed (perhaps because of your own perculiar prejudices) to understand it. I remember on at least two different threads you misunderstood and misrepresented me, berating me for opinions I didn't in fact hold.
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SO....
What. Is. Your. Opinion. (?) |
Why does this thread have to be about Big_Bird? I would have thought that Mao was a whole lot more fascinating. I'm inclined to sit back and watch for the moment ...and see how many more interesting views and motivations get ascribed to me. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Since we're talking about East Asian communists, what do you all think of Ho Chi Minh? My (Hanoian) Vietnamese friends told me that he was a great leader, but he made one terrible, terrible error...
...he never had children! (cue Vietnamese giggling) |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
I realize there has been a movement afoot to rehabilitate Mao for the youth. Even taxi drivers keep little Mao buttons dangling from their rear view mirrors. Sometimes it's just kitsch, sometimes seriously meant. One sees it in the new bills, all of which now has Mao's portrait on it. But it won't work try as they might. It's a temporary stay of historical execution. |
It seems to be working very well at the moment. I've had numerous young Chinese preaching to me how wonderful Mao was and what wonderful things he did for China. Once, trapped on a long overland journey by train, I had to listen for hours to a young doctor, his eyes filled with tears of love as he spoke with religious fervour about the 'Great Mao' - his parting gift to me an (apparently) treasured copy of Mao's little red book...
I recall one of the teachers I worked with talking with great bitterness about the cultural revolution and how his educated parents sufffered terribly for it. Yet he also loved Mao. He blamed only the gang of four. "Hmmmm... don't you mean the gang of five..." I thought.... biting down hard on my tongue, but I knew better than point it out.
Another fellow I know had a real chip on his shoulders about foreigners denigrating Mao, and eventually I got sick of his smug crap and broke one of my cardinal rules (i.e. never actively discuss politics with the Chinese - and just listen politely when spoken to about it) and pointed out that his wonderful Mao had put into place devastating policies that brought about a faminie that killed 30 million (conservative estimate - some say 60 million, and I've even read it was possibly up to 200 million) of his country men. Realising the danger, people around him tried to get him to reconsider his policies, but he refused to do an about turn because of his pride. He also refused to consider accepting international aid to assist these starving people, because he would lose face. When I pointed out to this fellow that this great Chinese patriot had allowed millions of his fellow Chinese to die, just because he didn't want to lose face, his wife was really surprised. She had obviously never heard of that. It was something of a revelation to her, and she wanted to know more. But the guy was absolutely furious. He looked at me like he would have liked to rip off my head.
A Chinese friend of mine ran a bar in Beijing. She spoke really good English and regularly critised her country and the behaviour of her fellow Chinese. One night I was chatting away to an Australian, and telling him about one of Mao's crazy policies - which was to replace properly trained doctors with peasants. "You learn the job by doing the job" was the gist of his reasoning. I pointed out that while millions of his people were forced to get medical assistance from people who knew nothing about what they were doing, Mao himself insisted on having a very good properly trained doctor. My Chinese friend overheard this and went crazy! She was furious that I had spoken ill of Mao, and started ranting about how great he was and how hurtful it was to Chinese people when foreigners spoke bad of Mao - it was "a knife in (her) heart" to hear me talk about Mao like that. After that there was a serious stain on our friendship.
I could give more examples. From numerous encounters I could see that the young Chinese of today are being fed so much propaganda about the 'Glorious Mao' it will take a heck of a lot to undo their positive perception of him. I suspect older Chinese keep their thoughts on Mao to themselves, because to speak out can put them in great danger. It seems to me that Mao's rehabilliation has been extremely successful. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Big Bird:
Your preceding (long but interesting) post is great. I underestimated you.
The Chinese youth of today are not so much brainwashed as caught up in the CCP's newfound ploy of jingoistic nationalism.
I have never met another Asian culture where saving national face is so highly coveted. Do you agree?
What's sadly telling is that a friend of mine, a highly educated Chinese woman with a doctorate (her parents were neurosurgeons, if you can imagine) who prides herself on being open-minded still gets cross at me if I dare to mention anything postive about Taiwan's government.
What appalled me most about Mao is his utter disregard for setting a good personal example even as his handlers presented him otherwise. He was a supreme hypocrite, giving himself the life of an emperor. Indeed, in an ironic sense, Mao was really China's last emperor, not PuYi.
As his private physician of 30 years revealed in his memoir of Mao, the Great Helmsman had an entire female brigade at his disposal to service him when he needed it. These girls were doing more than worshipping at the altar of Mao, and Mao himself believed he would live longer by indulging in their nectar, if you get my drift. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| It seems to me that Mao's rehabilliation has been extremely successful. |
As to has been Stalin's and many other monsters (speaking from my own time in Russia). To Germany's credit, Hitler has remained Hitler -- all his warts and waste.
My only wish (and I believe it will be true), is that Bushy never see any glorification......I do think Americans see history a lot less jingoistically (or let's say, even handed/headedly than elsewhere. )
DD |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
The Chinese youth of today are not so much brainwashed as caught up in the CCP's newfound ploy of jingoistic nationalism. |
Yes, the nationalism on display there is really rather ugly. It makes me shudder in fact. I was there when the Chinese pilot fatally collided with the American spy plane. The irrational reaction of the people and the Chinese media was bloody horrible. I considered leaving in fact (didn't want to be mistaken for an American) but fortunately it blew over fairly quickly. But the naked hatred and anger in some of my students (and co-workers) faces when they 'discussed' it was not a pretty sight to behold.
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| I have never met another Asian culture where saving national face is so highly coveted. Do you agree? |
I don't know how it compares with other Asian countries, but it is definately a huge part of their culture. The CCP puts it to good effect whenever it wants the Chinese to clean up their act - for example in readyness for the 2008 Olympics. They've got to put on a good show for the foreigners! I've also benefitted nicely from it, in that Chinese want you to have such a good impression of them and their country, that they go out of their way to be hospitable and helpful to you.
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| What appalled me most about Mao is his utter disregard for setting a good personal example even as his handlers presented him otherwise. He was a supreme hypocrite, giving himself the life of an emperor. Indeed, in an ironic sense, Mao was really China's last emperor, not PuYi. |
He always struck me as a power hungry loon. The whole point of the Cultural Revolution seems to have been to ensure he had a power base. China needed that revolution like a hole in the head. But that was just part of his 30% wrong.  |
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