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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
I understand what you're saying because I once believed the same thing. But consider:
1. We were made in the image of God;
2. Our experience of love, compassion, etc. are mirror images of God's same feelings (since we are an image);
3. Our sense of love, compassion, etc. can only be finite compared to God's;
4. How much more loving and compassionate should God be?
Child sacrifice (i.e. the death of Christ) does not seem to be more loving, but much less than our normal human capacity for love. Something's amiss. |
Let me answer your points:
1. Yes, in the image of God but we are not God.
2. Our experiences of love, compassion, etc. are from a sinful state of nature. We are human AND sinful which makes us really not that similar to Him. Much like a photo of my wife is not my wife but it sure looks like her.
3. I agree. So why do we keep trying to put human boundaries on God?
4. How much more loving and compassionate by human standards? I think God shows love in ways we can't even comprehend.
To the contrary, I think child sacrifice (Jesus' death) is the ultimate in love and compassion. I know that, given a choice, I couldn't put my son through that ordeal. God did, but didn't have to. When I think Jesus could have pulled Himself out of doing that at any time, but still saw it through to the end says much more about love and compassion than I could ever show. |
Would you call it love to put your son through a sacrificial death? Is that really any different (excepting the conservative theology behind it) than a Muslim strapping a bomb on their child?
Peace |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Would you call it love to put your son through a sacrificial death? Is that really any different (excepting the conservative theology behind it) than a Muslim strapping a bomb on their child? |
and where are these sacrifices taking place in the present day? You are comparing two religions at different times in their evolution to make your point. It is moot, as Islam is overwhelmingly violent NOW. Isolated incidents and events that happened before your great grandfather's great grandfather was born are not eligible when comparing Christianity and Islam. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
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| Would you call it love to put your son through a sacrificial death? Is that really any different (excepting the conservative theology behind it) than a Muslim strapping a bomb on their child? |
and where are these sacrifices taking place in the present day? You are comparing two religions at different times in their evolution to make your point. It is moot, as Islam is overwhelmingly violent NOW. Isolated incidents and events that happened before your great grandfather's great grandfather was born are not eligible when comparing Christianity and Islam. |
Exactly. True Christianity is composed of missionaries who go to war with prayer and compassion by feeding the hungry and healing the sick. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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They went on to say that gays deserve to die!
Gays worthy of death
"Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death (Romans 1:32)," Phelps quoted by State Press (Arizona State University), March 11, 1998.
Exterminate gays
"At the 1985 Conservative Political Action Conference, Cameron announced to the attendees, 'Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals.' According to an interview with former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, Cameron was recommending the extermination option as early as 1983." - Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995.
Well, not all Christians think they should die...
Discriminating against gays is "OK"
"Practicing homosexuals individually may come up against anti-gay societal sentiment in the form of denied jobs or housing. This is OK." - "The Gay Agenda", published by Paul Volle, Chairman, Christian Coalition of Maine, October 1998
Tattoo AIDS patients, castrate gays
"At least twice Cameron has advocated the tattooing of AIDS patients on the face, so that people would know when they were meeting with an infected person. The penalty for trying to hide the tattoo would be banishment to the Hawaiian island of Molokai, a former leper colony. In the event that a vaccine were developed to prevent AIDS, Cameron has proposed that homosexuals be castrated to prevent them from 'cheating' on nature." - Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995
Thus proof that Muslims don't corner the market on being idiots. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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luvnpeas wrote:
ddeubel wrote:
...the true message of Jesus, which is one of being anti authoritarian. To not participate in organizations based on the use of force.
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That's really just not supported by the text. Jesus said anybody who didn't see things his way was damned to Hell. My way or the highway was the message, which is pretty authoritarian. I don't see how any Biblical religion can claim to be anti-authortarian without rampant cherry-picking of sacred passages.
When people are oppressed, anti-authoritarian philosophy is sacred. When they rule, Inquisitions are the will of God. Christianity is no exception.
The text as it is can be made to say anything.
Peace |
I completely agree Seoulunitarian and it is fruitless to base one's philosophy of being upon words/scripture/sayings or jingles. Jesus as the story goes was also in agreement with this -- he never left any writing other than that he wrote on the beach to be washed away by the waves. He was well aware of this.
But I and many others base our view of Jesus (please see the very tried and true, Quest for the Historical Jesus by Schweitzer) by his acts. As we should all men. Jesus stood for two things, 1) as Schweitzer points our adroitly, the sanctity of each human life and thus reverance for life = whatever the conditions. 2) salvation for all, whoever, whatever the status and circumstance.
Both these depend on how one lives. In Jesus we see a man who cared for the weak, downtrodden, meek and suffering. Why? Is it just about suffering, fruitless sniffling and self engraciating suffering? No. It is about supporting those who are not on the side of power, render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars, to God, what is God's. Jesus showed in his acts, his parables/oral stories, that one can only live a true life if it is based on individual knowingness and freedom and NOT in support of violence and the life of whatever the century's Ceasars. Jesus was in every sense of the word, a revolutionary. But not one who would build another false idol/power but one who would let people free to live without the restraints of government and who would base their actions on their own responsibility. Unfortunately as that great chapter of Dostoevsky The Grand Inquisitor points out, men don't want to be responsible for their actions.
The fact simply is that nationalism, the resulting military and violence, prisons/police/army/tax men/laws and legislation are a failure. Dismal failure and the graves of so many of wasted lives, are a testament and proof of that.
The life of Jesus shows a man so aware of this and that message of his, against the false powers of state and law, must be retold and retold for the very few atleast who would wish to live in the light.
DD |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:50 pm Post subject: re: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
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| Would you call it love to put your son through a sacrificial death? Is that really any different (excepting the conservative theology behind it) than a Muslim strapping a bomb on their child? |
and where are these sacrifices taking place in the present day? You are comparing two religions at different times in their evolution to make your point. It is moot, as Islam is overwhelmingly violent NOW. Isolated incidents and events that happened before your great grandfather's great grandfather was born are not eligible when comparing Christianity and Islam. |
I suggest you do a bit of research on modern Muslim/Christian violence in Nigeria. Muslims are no more jihadist than Christians in many modern day Nigerian factions.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2004/06/10/nigeria040610.html
Peace |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Two sections of a country fighting are much different than random acts of terrorism with a country you are not at war with. Are you are telling me that religious violence stemming from both sides resulting in a mutual war is the same as people blowing up innocent civilians?
You can find incidents of war and violence anyplace at some given point in time. To compare present day Christianity to Islam, and BEGIN to think that it is responsible for even a fraction of the violence, carnage, and aggressiveness that Islam is responsible for is delusional. Please look at the world�s demographics in terms of terrorism and violence. There is usually more deaths caused by Muslim terrorists in ONE YEAR than in the whole of the Spansh Inquisition, one of the bloodiest times in Christianity.
Why is it that those who choose to see militant Islam for what it is can always state our point, but those who say things are relative never can? Why can you never make a solid statement about your actual beliefs without speaking in platitudes and isolated events?
Please answer my question. Which present day religion promotes more violence?
Now tell me, which present day religion has the most terrorist and aggressors against civilians? Not regimes or countries. Religions. Please answer my question. |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| That's really just not supported by the text. Jesus said... |
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| The text as it is can be made to say anything. |
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| I completely agree ... and it is fruitless to base one's philosophy of being upon words/scripture/sayings or jingles. Jesus as the story goes |
I don't understand how you can reject philosophy based on words/scripture, while advocating a philosophy based on what Jesus said ("as the story goes"). Everything you believe about what Jesus said is based on words and scripture.
A text that is well-written cannot be made to say anything. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| Which present day religion promotes more violence? |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| Not regimes or countries. Religions. Please answer my question. |
George Bush said that God told him to invade Iraq. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| To compare present day Christianity to Islam, and BEGIN to think that it is responsible for even a fraction of the violence, carnage, and aggressiveness that Islam is responsible for is delusional |
You must be delusional for you are completely wrong. Christianity rules in many large nations of the world. Look at the rituals, look at the ceremony and language. It is Christian. Russia, U.S.A, whole of most of Europe. They in turn export vast amounts of arms all over the world and in their part, allow violence to reign. They are as culpable as the Spanish of old paying for violence and mercenaries with their gold. Further, what is it in Iraq. Only Muslims killing muslims? Nope.
Further, lots of violence in which Christians play a part. They don't legitimize much of their aggression with the label, "Made in Bethlehem" but that only means they have found a very easy way around the notion of having to act "according to one's religion" (ie. morally). They have their cake and eat it too. Ever listen to Bush and how he spouts God this and thank the Lord that? How about the very busy bible study at the big White House?
| Quote: |
| Please look at the world�s demographics in terms of terrorism and violence. There is usually more deaths caused by Muslim terrorists in ONE YEAR than in the whole of the Spansh Inquisition, one of the bloodiest times in Christianity. |
which year are you talking about? Please provide evidence, I'd love to see it. Also, I don't see the relevance because beside the Moors and Jews who converted, most of the violence of the Spanish Inquisition was inflicted on mainly existing Catholics.
But it can't ever be the bloodiest of times in Christianity. That would be either Russian pogroms or then the Seven Years War. Let's not forget the Crusades..... But I would consider, the christian on christian violence of both world wars as being embarassingly MOST.
DD |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
Exactly. True Christianity is composed of missionaries who go to war with prayer and compassion by feeding the hungry and healing the sick. |
So do you consider Eric Rudolph Christian? How about Christian Identity? The Army of God? The KKK? They all profess Christianity as their religion. |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| Which present day religion promotes more violence? |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
| Not regimes or countries. Religions. Please answer my question. |
George Bush said that God told him to invade Iraq. |
Ugh.
Really?
Moving on. |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| christian on christian violence of both world wars as being embarassingly MOST. |
this is just retarded. Because people have wars, for different reasons, and happen to be of some religion doesn't mean that the war was cause by the relilgion....you cannot attribute it as a christian war or act of violence just because aggresors happened to be christian.
Not all wars can be seen as jihad. Wanting to kill non-believers because of a desire for one religion to prevail and the massive and systemized rape, murders, and terrorism on the basis of religion is now attributed mostly to Muslims. End of story.
If im wrong, then show me numbers. Not isolated incidents or history books. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
Wanting to kill non-believers because of a desire for one religion to prevail and the massive and systemized rape, murders, and terrorism on the basis of religion is now attributed mostly to Muslims. End of story.
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this is just retarded. ....you cannot attribute it as a muslim war or act of violence just because aggresors happened to be muslim. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: re: |
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| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
Two sections of a country fighting are much different than random acts of terrorism with a country you are not at war with. Are you are telling me that religious violence stemming from both sides resulting in a mutual war is the same as people blowing up innocent civilians?
You can find incidents of war and violence anyplace at some given point in time. To compare present day Christianity to Islam, and BEGIN to think that it is responsible for even a fraction of the violence, carnage, and aggressiveness that Islam is responsible for is delusional. Please look at the world�s demographics in terms of terrorism and violence. There is usually more deaths caused by Muslim terrorists in ONE YEAR than in the whole of the Spansh Inquisition, one of the bloodiest times in Christianity.
Why is it that those who choose to see militant Islam for what it is can always state our point, but those who say things are relative never can? Why can you never make a solid statement about your actual beliefs without speaking in platitudes and isolated events?
Please answer my question. Which present day religion promotes more violence?
Now tell me, which present day religion has the most terrorist and aggressors against civilians? Not regimes or countries. Religions. Please answer my question. |
I do not think anyone here is afraid to answer your question, nor is anyone denying the reality of present-day Muslim violence. Islam is presently more violent than any other religion. Big fat DUH!
No one is claiming many modern Muslims do not have a problem with violence. All we are doing is stating the obvious reality that Muslims are not the only religious people on earth who are violent. And you must realize as others have pointed out that violence also includes institutionalized violence, of which Christian countries are certainly at least equally guilty.
Asking which religion is more violent today than yesterday or the day before (or tomorrow and the day after) is like asking which child in my class picks their nose the most today. Well, of course the one with the most boogers, but the amount of boogers changes from child to child daily. So it is with violent segments of religions (though the change takes longer to occur than a day or two usually).
Peace
Last edited by seoulunitarian on Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:16 am; edited 3 times in total |
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