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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| this is just retarded. Because people have wars, for different reasons, and happen to be of some religion doesn't mean that the war was cause by the relilgion....you cannot attribute it as a christian war or act of violence just because aggresors happened to be christian. |
We of Europe are all of "the great code" meaning, Christianity (thank you Northrope [ Frye that is, and I consider it a great highlight of my life to have sat in several of his lectures] , please see his illuminating book on how Christian we are and our leaders are = how we even speak in symbols of the Christian world and our very cultural underpinnings are decidingly Christian). These wars were Christian and even that CHRISTmas interlude, so famously described between Germans and Allies of WW1 only reinforces this point.
So I guess you are of the opinion that whatever , however you raise the child, it doesn't matter? He / she will chose their own way?
I don't think so. Children [ and we all once were} are raised in a certain manner, with certain symbols/lenses before their eyes. Believe it or not, the world wars were a Christian war and an example of how hypocritical christians all were. Nationalism is just corrupted religion. And please tell me where Hitler the obedient, trusting altar boy, plays into all of this. He constantly referred and controlled the church, so too Mussollini. Despite pronouncements otherwise, both and so too Churchill, were fervent Christians, born and raised and they used the symbols of Christianity to their own end.......( Mussolini feigned everything, so long as it got him somewhere, Marxism, mother Mary, the resurrection.....) I guess you never heard of how in the lager/concentration camp, the Jews were constantly baited and bombarded with the cross, the allusion of the Christian??????
Please own up to our own culpability, I do. On the word of my forefathers. I lost 10 uncles in WWII, who went from Switzerland to fight for the Nazis . Why? Because they, as good Protestants, believed in Hitler as the new Messiah. And many at the time did. Funny isn't it. And then look at Churchill's own speeches for how much he himself was engrossed in Christian mythology.....
DD |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:10 am Post subject: re: |
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| luvnpeas wrote: |
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| That's really just not supported by the text. Jesus said... |
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| The text as it is can be made to say anything. |
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| I completely agree ... and it is fruitless to base one's philosophy of being upon words/scripture/sayings or jingles. Jesus as the story goes |
I don't understand how you can reject philosophy based on words/scripture, while advocating a philosophy based on what Jesus said ("as the story goes"). Everything you believe about what Jesus said is based on words and scripture.
A text that is well-written cannot be made to say anything. |
Because what Jesus SAID and what Jesus said are two different things altogether. Do you really think we have recevied the text just as it was first written, and that Jesus' words were recorded the moment he spoke them?
Peace |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: re: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
Wanting to kill non-believers because of a desire for one religion to prevail and the massive and systemized rape, murders, and terrorism on the basis of religion is now attributed mostly to Muslims. End of story.
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this is just retarded. ....you cannot attribute it as a muslim war or act of violence just because aggresors happened to be muslim. |
This is a good point. Though the Muslim bombers my be morally comfroted by the fact that they will soon be with 70 virgins, many of them are motivated by non-religious factors to bomb (i.e. economic, anti-imperialist, etc.)
Peace |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
Two sections of a country fighting are much different than random acts of terrorism with a country you are not at war with. Are you are telling me that religious violence stemming from both sides resulting in a mutual war is the same as people blowing up innocent civilians?
You can find incidents of war and violence anyplace at some given point in time. To compare present day Christianity to Islam, and BEGIN to think that it is responsible for even a fraction of the violence, carnage, and aggressiveness that Islam is responsible for is delusional. Please look at the world�s demographics in terms of terrorism and violence. There is usually more deaths caused by Muslim terrorists in ONE YEAR than in the whole of the Spansh Inquisition, one of the bloodiest times in Christianity.
Why is it that those who choose to see militant Islam for what it is can always state our point, but those who say things are relative never can? Why can you never make a solid statement about your actual beliefs without speaking in platitudes and isolated events?
Please answer my question. Which present day religion promotes more violence?
Now tell me, which present day religion has the most terrorist and aggressors against civilians? Not regimes or countries. Religions. Please answer my question. |
I do not think anyone here is afraid to answer your question, nor is anyone denying the reality of present-day Muslim violence. Islam is presently more violent than any other religion. Big fat DUH!
No one is claiming many modern Muslims do not have a problem with violence. All we are doing is stating the obvious reality that Muslims are not the only religious people on earth who are violent. And you must realize as others have pointed out that violence also includes institutionalized violence, of which Christian countries are certainly at least equally guilty. |
Whoa! Are you conceding that the U.S. is a "Christian country"? If that's the case, I would suggest that the religious right has a lot of catching up to do! |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
Two sections of a country fighting are much different than random acts of terrorism with a country you are not at war with. Are you are telling me that religious violence stemming from both sides resulting in a mutual war is the same as people blowing up innocent civilians?
You can find incidents of war and violence anyplace at some given point in time. To compare present day Christianity to Islam, and BEGIN to think that it is responsible for even a fraction of the violence, carnage, and aggressiveness that Islam is responsible for is delusional. Please look at the world�s demographics in terms of terrorism and violence. There is usually more deaths caused by Muslim terrorists in ONE YEAR than in the whole of the Spansh Inquisition, one of the bloodiest times in Christianity.
Why is it that those who choose to see militant Islam for what it is can always state our point, but those who say things are relative never can? Why can you never make a solid statement about your actual beliefs without speaking in platitudes and isolated events?
Please answer my question. Which present day religion promotes more violence?
Now tell me, which present day religion has the most terrorist and aggressors against civilians? Not regimes or countries. Religions. Please answer my question. |
I do not think anyone here is afraid to answer your question, nor is anyone denying the reality of present-day Muslim violence. Islam is presently more violent than any other religion. Big fat DUH!
No one is claiming many modern Muslims do not have a problem with violence. All we are doing is stating the obvious reality that Muslims are not the only religious people on earth who are violent. And you must realize as others have pointed out that violence also includes institutionalized violence, of which Christian countries are certainly at least equally guilty. |
Whoa! Are you conceding that the U.S. is a "Christian country"? If that's the case, I would suggest that the religious right has a lot of catching up to do! |
The religious right is in the White House. But to answer your question, I do not think American is a Christian nation in the sense fundamentalists use that term. It is, however, saturated with Christianity and its symbols, which are surely at least a part of the subconscious of many Americans.
Peace |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Exactly. True Christianity is composed of missionaries who go to war with prayer and compassion by feeding the hungry and healing the sick. |
So do you consider Eric Rudolph Christian? How about Christian Identity? The Army of God? The KKK? They all profess Christianity as their religion. |
Compare the percentages. How popular are these groups?
Whereas how many Muslims want to destroy Jews, Christians and Homosexuals? |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
Two sections of a country fighting are much different than random acts of terrorism with a country you are not at war with. Are you are telling me that religious violence stemming from both sides resulting in a mutual war is the same as people blowing up innocent civilians?
You can find incidents of war and violence anyplace at some given point in time. To compare present day Christianity to Islam, and BEGIN to think that it is responsible for even a fraction of the violence, carnage, and aggressiveness that Islam is responsible for is delusional. Please look at the world�s demographics in terms of terrorism and violence. There is usually more deaths caused by Muslim terrorists in ONE YEAR than in the whole of the Spansh Inquisition, one of the bloodiest times in Christianity.
Why is it that those who choose to see militant Islam for what it is can always state our point, but those who say things are relative never can? Why can you never make a solid statement about your actual beliefs without speaking in platitudes and isolated events?
Please answer my question. Which present day religion promotes more violence?
Now tell me, which present day religion has the most terrorist and aggressors against civilians? Not regimes or countries. Religions. Please answer my question. |
I do not think anyone here is afraid to answer your question, nor is anyone denying the reality of present-day Muslim violence. Islam is presently more violent than any other religion. Big fat DUH!
No one is claiming many modern Muslims do not have a problem with violence. All we are doing is stating the obvious reality that Muslims are not the only religious people on earth who are violent. And you must realize as others have pointed out that violence also includes institutionalized violence, of which Christian countries are certainly at least equally guilty. |
Whoa! Are you conceding that the U.S. is a "Christian country"? If that's the case, I would suggest that the religious right has a lot of catching up to do! |
The religious right is in the White House. But to answer your question, I do not think American is a Christian nation in the sense fundamentalists use that term. It is, however, saturated with Christianity and its symbols, which are surely at least a part of the subconscious of many Americans.
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Then I would say to you that any imagined wrong-doing by the U.S. in, and I'm just spit-balling here, Iraq is/was NOT done by a Christian nation and has nothing to do with religion at all. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
Two sections of a country fighting are much different than random acts of terrorism with a country you are not at war with. Are you are telling me that religious violence stemming from both sides resulting in a mutual war is the same as people blowing up innocent civilians?
You can find incidents of war and violence anyplace at some given point in time. To compare present day Christianity to Islam, and BEGIN to think that it is responsible for even a fraction of the violence, carnage, and aggressiveness that Islam is responsible for is delusional. Please look at the world�s demographics in terms of terrorism and violence. There is usually more deaths caused by Muslim terrorists in ONE YEAR than in the whole of the Spansh Inquisition, one of the bloodiest times in Christianity.
Why is it that those who choose to see militant Islam for what it is can always state our point, but those who say things are relative never can? Why can you never make a solid statement about your actual beliefs without speaking in platitudes and isolated events?
Please answer my question. Which present day religion promotes more violence?
Now tell me, which present day religion has the most terrorist and aggressors against civilians? Not regimes or countries. Religions. Please answer my question. |
I do not think anyone here is afraid to answer your question, nor is anyone denying the reality of present-day Muslim violence. Islam is presently more violent than any other religion. Big fat DUH!
No one is claiming many modern Muslims do not have a problem with violence. All we are doing is stating the obvious reality that Muslims are not the only religious people on earth who are violent. And you must realize as others have pointed out that violence also includes institutionalized violence, of which Christian countries are certainly at least equally guilty. |
Whoa! Are you conceding that the U.S. is a "Christian country"? If that's the case, I would suggest that the religious right has a lot of catching up to do! |
The religious right is in the White House. But to answer your question, I do not think American is a Christian nation in the sense fundamentalists use that term. It is, however, saturated with Christianity and its symbols, which are surely at least a part of the subconscious of many Americans.
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Then I would say to you that any imagined wrong-doing by the U.S. in, and I'm just spit-balling here, Iraq is/was NOT done by a Christian nation and has nothing to do with religion at all. |
Again, for those who cannot read, the religious right is in the White House.
Peace |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
Two sections of a country fighting are much different than random acts of terrorism with a country you are not at war with. Are you are telling me that religious violence stemming from both sides resulting in a mutual war is the same as people blowing up innocent civilians?
You can find incidents of war and violence anyplace at some given point in time. To compare present day Christianity to Islam, and BEGIN to think that it is responsible for even a fraction of the violence, carnage, and aggressiveness that Islam is responsible for is delusional. Please look at the world�s demographics in terms of terrorism and violence. There is usually more deaths caused by Muslim terrorists in ONE YEAR than in the whole of the Spansh Inquisition, one of the bloodiest times in Christianity.
Why is it that those who choose to see militant Islam for what it is can always state our point, but those who say things are relative never can? Why can you never make a solid statement about your actual beliefs without speaking in platitudes and isolated events?
Please answer my question. Which present day religion promotes more violence?
Now tell me, which present day religion has the most terrorist and aggressors against civilians? Not regimes or countries. Religions. Please answer my question. |
I do not think anyone here is afraid to answer your question, nor is anyone denying the reality of present-day Muslim violence. Islam is presently more violent than any other religion. Big fat DUH!
No one is claiming many modern Muslims do not have a problem with violence. All we are doing is stating the obvious reality that Muslims are not the only religious people on earth who are violent. And you must realize as others have pointed out that violence also includes institutionalized violence, of which Christian countries are certainly at least equally guilty. |
Whoa! Are you conceding that the U.S. is a "Christian country"? If that's the case, I would suggest that the religious right has a lot of catching up to do! |
The religious right is in the White House. But to answer your question, I do not think American is a Christian nation in the sense fundamentalists use that term. It is, however, saturated with Christianity and its symbols, which are surely at least a part of the subconscious of many Americans.
|
Then I would say to you that any imagined wrong-doing by the U.S. in, and I'm just spit-balling here, Iraq is/was NOT done by a Christian nation and has nothing to do with religion at all. |
Again, for those who cannot read, the religious right is in the White House.
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Again, for those who have no clue, it doesn't matter who the elected official in the White House is because religion had nothing to do with the decision to invade Iraq or any other "institutionalized violence" that one may wish to bemoan. It's a national/political problem, not a religious one. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| ChimpumCallao wrote: |
Two sections of a country fighting are much different than random acts of terrorism with a country you are not at war with. Are you are telling me that religious violence stemming from both sides resulting in a mutual war is the same as people blowing up innocent civilians?
You can find incidents of war and violence anyplace at some given point in time. To compare present day Christianity to Islam, and BEGIN to think that it is responsible for even a fraction of the violence, carnage, and aggressiveness that Islam is responsible for is delusional. Please look at the world�s demographics in terms of terrorism and violence. There is usually more deaths caused by Muslim terrorists in ONE YEAR than in the whole of the Spansh Inquisition, one of the bloodiest times in Christianity.
Why is it that those who choose to see militant Islam for what it is can always state our point, but those who say things are relative never can? Why can you never make a solid statement about your actual beliefs without speaking in platitudes and isolated events?
Please answer my question. Which present day religion promotes more violence?
Now tell me, which present day religion has the most terrorist and aggressors against civilians? Not regimes or countries. Religions. Please answer my question. |
I do not think anyone here is afraid to answer your question, nor is anyone denying the reality of present-day Muslim violence. Islam is presently more violent than any other religion. Big fat DUH!
No one is claiming many modern Muslims do not have a problem with violence. All we are doing is stating the obvious reality that Muslims are not the only religious people on earth who are violent. And you must realize as others have pointed out that violence also includes institutionalized violence, of which Christian countries are certainly at least equally guilty. |
Whoa! Are you conceding that the U.S. is a "Christian country"? If that's the case, I would suggest that the religious right has a lot of catching up to do! |
The religious right is in the White House. But to answer your question, I do not think American is a Christian nation in the sense fundamentalists use that term. It is, however, saturated with Christianity and its symbols, which are surely at least a part of the subconscious of many Americans.
|
Then I would say to you that any imagined wrong-doing by the U.S. in, and I'm just spit-balling here, Iraq is/was NOT done by a Christian nation and has nothing to do with religion at all. |
Again, for those who cannot read, the religious right is in the White House.
|
Again, for those who have no clue, it doesn't matter who the elected official in the White House is because religion had nothing to do with the decision to invade Iraq or any other "institutionalized violence" that one may wish to bemoan. It's a national/political problem, not a religious one. |
Bush saying "God told me to do it" does not = religious motivation? Come on.
Peace |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Exactly. True Christianity is composed of missionaries who go to war with prayer and compassion by feeding the hungry and healing the sick. |
So do you consider Eric Rudolph Christian? How about Christian Identity? The Army of God? The KKK? They all profess Christianity as their religion. |
Compare the percentages. How popular are these groups?
Whereas how many Muslims want to destroy Jews, Christians and Homosexuals? |
Just what do you think the percantages are, anyways? If there are so many Muslims gung-ho on destroying Jews, Christians, and homosexuals, how come there aren't bombs going off left and right in America?
Eric Rudolph evaded capture for 5 years. Mainstream Christian leader, Pat Robertson, has issued the equivalent of fatwahs against Disneyland for having Gay Day, Ariel Sharon for withdrawing troops from the Gaza Strip, Hugo Chavek for being Hugo Chavez, as well as the US, for being filled with infidels. It seems that there is a quite a bit of support for Christian terrorists. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Exactly. True Christianity is composed of missionaries who go to war with prayer and compassion by feeding the hungry and healing the sick. |
So do you consider Eric Rudolph Christian? How about Christian Identity? The Army of God? The KKK? They all profess Christianity as their religion. |
Compare the percentages. How popular are these groups?
Whereas how many Muslims want to destroy Jews, Christians and Homosexuals? |
Just what do you think the percantages are, anyways? If there are so many Muslims gung-ho on destroying Jews, Christians, and homosexuals, how come there aren't bombs going off left and right in America?
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It's probably because we haven't reached the boiling point yet, but its coming. North America ,in the next couple of years, will soon feel this hatred by terrorist acts.
| Quote: |
| Eric Rudolph evaded capture for 5 years. Mainstream Christian leader, Pat Robertson, has issued the equivalent of fatwahs against Disneyland for having Gay Day, Ariel Sharon for withdrawing troops from the Gaza Strip, Hugo Chavek for being Hugo Chavez, as well as the US, for being filled with infidels. It seems that there is a quite a bit of support for Christian terrorists. |
Not that I am aware of all that he said. Did he order suicide bombers to attack women and children? Was he telling Christian brothers to rise up and kill their secular heathen neighbors? Probably not. Ok, he wanted Chavez to be killed, ok, so he lost it on this one. However, he apologized for it and he lost a lot of support because of it. His influence has diminished since this time.
I don't see many Imans apologizing for their calls for the destruction of America or Israel. Rather an increased rhetoric on the destruction of them both. Do you see President Ahmadinejad wavering from his stance? Do you see Palestine leaders turn from their continual indoctrination of their children to hate Jews. And what's happening with their influence? The LA times actually doesn't think IRAN is a a threat to world peace? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Just what do you think the percantages are, anyways? If there are so many Muslims gung-ho on destroying Jews, Christians, and homosexuals, how come there aren't bombs going off left and right in America?
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It's probably because we haven't reached the boiling point yet, but its coming. North America ,in the next couple of years, will soon feel this hatred by terrorist acts. |
If it reaches a boiling point, it will be because of people like you fanning the flames. Despite your efforts to facilitate Armeggedon, I really don't think it will come to that. When I visit the US, I often stay in the Somali-Muslim area of Minneapolis. I don't see any religious tension there at all.
| Quote: |
| I don't see many Imans apologizing for their calls for the destruction of America or Israel. |
How much of this is political and how much of this is religious? Just because someone shrouds their hatred in Islam doesn't make it a religious cause. There are plenty of people in non-Muslim countries who hate the US and Israel just as much. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
If it reaches a boiling point, it will be because of people like you fanning the flames. Despite your efforts to facilitate Armeggedon, I really don't think it will come to that. When I visit the US, I often stay in the Somali-Muslim area of Minneapolis. I don't see any religious tension there at all.
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People like me? What about people who hide behind a religion or a cause to rape or beat women? Or justify it to kill innocent people, because they have chosen to not follow their religion. Many Christians throughout the world are killed because of their faith in Christ and they are killed by muslims.
You blame me for a violence against people, because I choose to speak out against it and inform people of the facts? I think that the lack of courage to speak out against it on your part and others is why this war continues to keep going. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
If it reaches a boiling point, it will be because of people like you fanning the flames. Despite your efforts to facilitate Armeggedon, I really don't think it will come to that. When I visit the US, I often stay in the Somali-Muslim area of Minneapolis. I don't see any religious tension there at all. |
People like me? What about people who hide behind a religion or a cause to rape or beat women? Or justify it to kill innocent people, because they have chosen to not follow their religion. Many Christians throughout the world are killed because of their faith in Christ and they are killed by muslims. |
I'm not sure how this relates to the boiling point in the US. But let's recap:
1. You say Muslims are violent people and are out to kill non-Muslims.
2. I show that they aren't.
3. You say that it will happen.
4. I ask why you think it will happen.
5. You say it's because Muslims are violent people and are out to kill non-Muslims.
'Tis quite a lovely circle of logic you've spun for us.
Still waiting for the proof that Islam is a more destructive influence than, say, Christianity.
| Quote: |
| You blame me for a violence against people, because I choose to speak out against it and inform people of the facts? I think that the lack of courage to speak out against it on your part and others is why this war continues to keep going. |
What war are you talking about?
BTW, I'm still waiting for you, or anyone else, to prove the "facts" of Muslim violence. |
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