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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimchi Cowboy wrote: |
| ...get out of the Middle East entirely. And everywhere else, for that matter. Let the locals fight their own wars, and put some of those billions of war dollars into fixing their own problems at home. |
| James Fenmore Cooper wrote: |
"Ah! Why cannot men be content with the blessings Providence places within our immediate reach, that they must make distant voyages to accumulate others!"
"You like your tea, Mary Pratt -- and the sugar in it, and your silks and ribbons that I've seen you wear; how are you to get such matters if there's to be no going on v'y'ages? Tea and sugar, and silks and satins don't grow along with clams on 'Yster Pond" -- for so the deacon so uniformly pronounced the word "oyster."
Mary acknowledged the truth of what was said, but changed the subject... |
The Sea Lions |
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Kimchi Cowboy
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Kimchi Cowboy wrote: |
| ...get out of the Middle East entirely. And everywhere else, for that matter. Let the locals fight their own wars, and put some of those billions of war dollars into fixing their own problems at home. |
| James Fenmore Cooper wrote: |
"Ah! Why cannot men be content with the blessings Providence places within our immediate reach, that they must make distant voyages to accumulate others!"
"You like your tea, Mary Pratt -- and the sugar in it, and your silks and ribbons that I've seen you wear; how are you to get such matters if there's to be no going on v'y'ages? Tea and sugar, and silks and satins don't grow along with clams on 'Yster Pond" -- for so the deacon so uniformly pronounced the word "oyster."
Mary acknowledged the truth of what was said, but changed the subject... |
The Sea Lions |
Doth thou comparest me with young Mary? For fine silks, satins and teas wi' nae be found 'twixt these walls... 
So... Whaddya make of Beckham goin' to LA?  |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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| madcap wrote: |
Chimp-
That is the very reason that you are not, nor will you ever be president.
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| I would basically level the place. I would have the whatever it takes mentality of WW2, even if it meant civilian casualties. I would bombard every place where there was even a HINT of insurgence in a way that would make dresden look like a paintball fight. |
I hate to disagree with you Herr Fuerer, but we might have some trouble justifying the nuclear slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Maybe we could set up something more efficient, like gas chambers and crematoriums in giant camps. Seems like someone has tried this before with some degree of success. When everyone's gone we'll just export all of our illegal aliens from the states to Iraq and set up a nice base of impoverished Christians who can work the oil fields our 51st state. We'll call it New Texas.
Next time you want to write such an ignorant post maybe you walk a mile in the shoes of one of those civilians you want to incinerate. |
[/quote]
I can see where CC is coming from and my solution is almost the same.
Obviously, as a person with sense, I'm opposed to this pathetic chaos, however now that we've created this mess, the least worst option in my opinion is a full-blown occupation and colony. I'd pull US troops out of Japan, Korea and Europe and do the job properly in Iraq, because if the world's superpower cannot crush the Iraqi peasantry, it seems to follow that it's been a rather half-hearted effort, surely. |
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madcap
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Gangneung, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Alffy wrote
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| And as to all the commentary regarding 'We broke it so its ours to fix.' Please spare me the 'White man's burden' garbage. It was broken before we got there, it is broken now, and any reolution we might 'impose' that WE find acceptable would, most likely, in the eyes of the Iraqis, still be broken. |
Yes, it was "broken" in that it was inefficient and the government was corrupt and viscious, but at least it functioned. And I know that you are going to say that Saddam was a horrible dictator and he killed tens of thousands of Kurds and used biological weapons (which we sold him) but I personally don't think that we are in any place to talk. America might not have committed any genocide lately, but that's only because we outsource it now to our friendly neighborhood mercenary states. As far as blaming the British and the French for its current situation, you are absolutely right. What do you expect will happen when you divide up a region with no regard to ethnicity, religion, or history. What happens is you breed instability which the big industrialized economies were happy to take advantage of. We didn't create the country, but we've been forcing them into giving us preffered treatment for about a hundred years. Look what we did to Iran when their democratically elected government voted to nationalize the oil industry. BP and Mobile talked to their buddies in the US and British governments and we funded an uprising that put the Sha into power, a monarchy.
If they want to split the country up and find a way that is acceptable to everyone involved, I'm cool with that. I'm cool with occupying the country with another half a million troops, so long as the overall death tolls (that's US and Iraqi's both, not just US) go down. I know it's a little unpatriotic, but I almost feel worse about hearing some kid got blown up in a marketplace than about a US soldier that was killed by a roadside bomb. At least they joined the army knowing that this type of thing could happen. It's completely out of the control of the civilians over there. The only thing I would worry about with a massive escalation is that the people would reject us and it would frighted them. The only way we are going to stop the violence is to win the hearts of the people. If the Iraqis like you and hate the insurgents/terrorists they aren't going to go join a militia and they aren't going to support them with food and money. How do we win the people? Lets start by getting the power back on. Clean water. Build more hospitals. Education. Mosques. You get the idea. Build those oil refineries and drilling stations so that we can create more jobs. If we just pull out, these things are never going to be done because every time construction starts, someone will come along and blow it up and we could see an endless cycle of violence like the Israeli/Palestinian debacle.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a dreamer, I'm a realist. I know that none of this will happen. We will stay in Iraq for another two years or so until GW gets out of office. By then everyone will really the Republicans and we'll probably elect a democrat on the platform of bringing our boys home and then the iraqi's are going to be left high and dry. I assume we will see someone win the civil war and establish themself as a dictator, but the violence won't stop there. Eventually they will get the oil business running again and this dictator will build palaces and buy weapons with the money instead of investing into his country's infrastructure. Then when the oil runs out there will be a huge exodus out of the region because without oil, they have no economy and the region will decend into extreme poverty.
Hope I'm wrong.[/i] |
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alffy
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Madcap, I agree with everything you wrote, except for the idea of a massive troop surge to quell the insurgency.
I applaud you on a well thought out and reasoned position.
I also concur with your rather pessimistic assessment of the next few years. And I, like you, hope I am wrong. |
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madcap
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Gangneung, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks. I apreciate the feedback and I'm glad you agree. Just to clarify, I don't encourage a troop surge, I think even this little one isn't going to be cost beneficial. What else can you do, though? I think the present situation is unacceptable and I don't want to see it get any worse. The realist in me is rearing its ugly head again and saying "if we're going to leave the place in shambles anyway, why not leave now before we waste more time, money, and lives."
Hope I'm wrong. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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I think Ganja said it best, that the Iraqi people would be satisfied with atleast some electricity.
I think the least America can do is clean up its own bedroom. What troubles me about the troop "surge" and the new Deomocrats is precisely their unwillingness to uphold the tenents of the Constitution and prosecute the buggers in their home who have violated American values/norms. Nothing good will happen until that happens. I will comment on this elsewhere....but want to mention.
I have followed the blog of an Iraqi girl/young woman for awhile now (3 months). Wish I had earlier. It is one way, we can atleast begin to understand those "on the ground" to backslap with the military term. I would hope others check it out. She speaks frankly, plainly, about the wishes of normal Iraqis and also point blankly reveals a lot of the hypocricy of those "higher ups" who have electricity and a well set table....an excerpt below
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
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My only conclusion is that the Americans want to withdraw from Iraq, but would like to leave behind a full-fledged civil war because it wouldn't look good if they withdraw and things actually begin to improve, would it?
Here we come to the end of 2006 and I am sad. Not simply sad for the state of the country, but for the state of our humanity, as Iraqis. We've all lost some of the compassion and civility that I felt made us special four years ago. I take myself as an example. Nearly four years ago, I cringed every time I heard about the death of an American soldier. They were occupiers, but they were humans also and the knowledge that they were being killed in my country gave me sleepless nights. Never mind they crossed oceans to attack the country, I actually felt for them.
Had I not chronicled those feelings of agitation in this very blog, I wouldn't believe them now. Today, they simply represent numbers. 3000 Americans dead over nearly four years? Really? That's the number of dead Iraqis in less than a month. The Americans had families? Too bad. So do we. So do the corpses in the streets and the ones waiting for identification in the morgue.
Is the American soldier that died today in Anbar more important than a cousin I have who was shot last month on the night of his engagement to a woman he's wanted to marry for the last six years? I don't think so.
Just because Americans die in smaller numbers, it doesn't make them more significant, does it? |
DD |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| madcap wrote: |
| What else can you do, though? |
Allow them some self-determination, maybe? |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
| madcap wrote: |
| What else can you do, though? |
Allow them some self-determination, maybe? |
I thought you said to self-detonated
Isn't self-determination same as self-detonation in the Middle East? |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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The solution?
The next president should strike a deal:
They: stop fighting
US: offers to give up Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Rice and that moron Powell to them. Let them kill them or whetever. |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Chimp-
That is the very reason that you are not, nor will you ever be president. |
really? THAT?
I thought it was my run of the mill education, gender, money, lack of political ambition and connections, age and the fact that I immigrated to the US. Nice to know that all separating me from the white house is hypothetical choices you disagree with. |
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madcap
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Gangneung, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| That's an interesting way of defending your statements, Chimp. Why don't we avoid talking about the issues altogether and focus more on ad hominim arguments and other logical fallacies? If you want to impress me, honey, do more than show that I didn't go through and read your post history. Try reading a newspaper. Or better yet, why not take a stroll through a couple Baghdad marketplaces? That might stir up a little empathy somewhere in that icy heart of yours. At the very worst, I don't think we would lose anything we would miss. |
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Cerebroden
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
The solution?
The next president should strike a deal:
They: stop fighting
US: offers to give up Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Rice and that moron Powell to them. Let them kill them or whetever. |
wow you must have been first in your class when it came to intelligence. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Advice?
Simple. Don't launch a major, bloody & prolonged *cough* "liberation" on the basis of craftily cooked-up fabrications, exaggerated threats, not-so hidden / personal agendas etc etc ... |
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Cerebroden
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Ddeubel...In response to the iraqi women's blog, the last statement about a cousin that wanted to marry for the last 6 years.
Who exactly gave him the oppurtunity to marry that woman in the first place? Maybe that soldier who she didn't care about dying?? |
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