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Dude Love
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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 Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject: reply |
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Hello, luvnpeas. I agree that most socialist/communist countries are distorted versions of the original version. Communism hasn't ever worked and I think it's very interesting that some people somehow manage to still support it.
To be honest, I don't think it's at all thoughtless to ask why those who claim to support socialism/communism don't live under the type of gov't they claim to support. I believe in democracy and I'm happy to live in a democracy. If my religion had a theocracy, I'd probably be happy to live there also. Right now, I live in a country that has an economic policy I agree with and I visit my family often because unlike communism, the capitalistic democracy in which I choose to live offers me a good wage and allows me to enter and leave at will (unlike communism).
Should a communist/socialist not want their home to be in such a country? As for earning a living, isn't the gov't supposed to provide for everyone for a socialist/communist?
The US can't arrest me for visiting Cuba because I'm not from the US. As I mentioned, I've met many Cubans (a good friend of mine is married to a Cuban woman who jumped at the opportunity to leave). All of them either didn't care if Castro died or wanted him to die. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: Re: reply |
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| Dude Love wrote: |
Sock, name calling is not necessary. To answer your question, I'm not moving to Somalia because living in accordance with my beliefs (political, religious, economic) doesn't require me to.
Of course you're free to go anywhere you like. That's a freedom democracy grants its people. I just find it hypocritical than people (not necessarily you) would decry big business and then move to South Korea. |
Dude, putting the term socialists with communists is kind of like putting regular food and dog food together because they are both food. It is very vague. Many socialists who have a capitalist front to them and may be labeled, left leaning capitalists, or right leaning socialists, depending on how you want to label things, opposed the communists. As far as Cuba and Venezuela, I do not believe in undemocratic governments. If you mentioned moving to Sweden, Norway, or a similar country than that would be acceptable. |
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soviet_man
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| If you all think capitalism is bad why do you freely move to a country as capitalist as South Korea? Why not immigrate to Cuba or Venezuela? Thanks for your help as no communist has even been able to tell me. |
(I rarely read daves more than once a week these days and this is the first time I've seen your post otherwise I would of written earlier.)
But firstly, there are many (Korean) socialists living in South Korea (some with pro-DPRK views, some without). They don't see their politics as being geographically limited to the established socialist states. Why should it be?
An orthodox communist position (which I share) would be to advocate the implementation of socialism on the broadest possible scale.
In saying that, South Korea does not have a long two-party tradition. Infact many South Koreans remain only one or two generations from the plow. It is quite possible that the current party system will be reshaped and redefined in the decades ahead when reunification with north eventually happens. |
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Dude Love
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: reply |
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Hello, Adventurer. I know the terms "socialism" and "communism" shouldn't be used interchangeably and it wasn't my intention to do so. Thank God you don't believe in undemocratic governments. As for Sweden, it recently elected a right-wing leader. To be honest, I don't know much about Norway other than that Oslo is now the most expensive city in the world.
Hello, soviet_man. If you're indeed Soviet and hold Orthodox communist positions, I guess you should be glad that your former republic lasted longer than any communist country ever has. 77 years, was it? I can totally respect people with different views and if socialists want socialism implemented on the broadest scale, that's their right. I just find it odd that out of 193 countries they'd choose a strong capitalist, staunchly anti-communist country like South Korea. Do you expect to spread socialism here?
Religious people make the effort to live according to the principles of their religion. People who support democracy live according to democratic principles. People who support capitalism live according to capitalist principles. But a communist going to South Korea? It just seems weird. I can totally respect people with different views but with communists it's a bit more challenging because they talk about the merits of communism but they don't want to apply those principles to themselves. They prefer the comforts that come with living in capitalist, democratic South Korea. It reminds me of those KFA people from Friends of Kim in the DPRK singing the praises of communism and working with the common people for two weeks. But once they get tired of it they all go back to their prosperous democratic countries. If one of them can explain this to me, they might get lucky and have me see things their way. |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: reply |
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| Dude Love wrote: |
| I agree that most socialist/communist countries are distorted versions of the original version. Communism hasn't ever worked and I think it's very interesting that some people somehow manage to still support it. |
Part of my point was that Marxist philosophies haven't really been tested, because the so-called "communist" countries are distortions of Marxist ideals. I have some friends who consider themselves socialist, or sympathetic to it. Their basic value is that the people should control the means of production in a society. That's the exact opposite of what happens in most so-called "communist" countries, where a large state-run, centralized beauracracy controls the means of production, and power rests with an ellite. So I don't think it is fair to say "comunism hasn't ever worked."
Likewise, I don't think it is very accurate to draw conclusions about free-markets based on the US. There is no true free-market when government is activley involved in promoting corporate growth. It's not even clear that the existence of corproations is logically compatible with a true free-market system, since a corporation can only come into existence via government-granted charter. |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: reply |
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| luvnpeas wrote: |
Part of my point was that Marxist philosophies haven't really been tested, because the so-called "communist" countries are distortions of Marxist ideals. I have some friends who consider themselves socialist, or sympathetic to it. Their basic value is that the people should control the means of production in a society. That's the exact opposite of what happens in most so-called "communist" countries, where a large state-run, centralized beauracracy controls the means of production, and power rests with an ellite. So I don't think it is fair to say "comunism hasn't ever worked." |
I disagree- communism is a kind of socialism, not its opposite. In communism, property is socialized. This is just taking the principles of socialism to their logical extreme, where rather than having a degree of private property (ie France), there is no degree of private property (ie North Korea). But the principle remains the same.
And under proper communism according to Marxist-Leninist doctrine, a large state-run bureaucracy only controls the means of production to protect the revolution temporarily. It was never meant to be permanent.
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| It's not even clear that the existence of corproations is logically compatible with a true free-market system, since a corporation can only come into existence via government-granted charter. |
A corporation can only have legal rights as a person (which it does in Canada) by government sanction, but under a free market system there would still be intellectual property for individuals just as there would be physical property, such as patents and copyrights. If you own a patent, copyright, or a license to either, you can start up a company by putting a product or service on the market. Get a few employees together and you have yourself a company. |
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Dude Love
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: reply |
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| Hello, luvnpeas. If proper "Marxist" communism hasn't ever been implemented then it hasn't ever worked. Why do you think it is that the governments that consider themselves communist don't follow Marxist communist principles? My guess is that like everyone else who claims to think communism is great, they don't want to apply the principles to themselves. |
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luvnpeas
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Location: somewhere i have never travelled
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: reply |
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| cdninkorea wrote: |
| I disagree- communism is a kind of socialism, not its opposite. In communism, property is socialized. This is just taking the principles of socialism to their logical extreme, where rather than having a degree of private property (ie France), there is no degree of private property (ie North Korea). |
My point was that the countries called "communist" that have existed have not been serious attempts to implement Marxist ideals. North Korea is a good example: Do you really think those in power lack private property?
| Quote: |
A corporation can only have legal rights as a person (which it does in Canada) by government sanction, but under a free market system there would still be intellectual property for individuals just as there would be physical property, such as patents and copyrights. If you own a patent, copyright, or a license to either, you can start up a company by putting a product or service on the market. Get a few employees together and you have yourself a company. |
A company in that loose sense is not a corporation, and would lack the power of corporations to raise capital.
Granted, saying that a true socialist country has never existed means socialism has never worked; it also means socialism has never failed. And, even a failure would not be very relevant in such a complicated matter. Ever had a relationship fail? Did it prove your relationships can't succeed? Turning a political philsophy into a real country is an enormously complicated task. The US, allegedly the leader in democracy and individual liberty, began with slavery, denial of rights to women, and denial of rights to anyone who didn't own land. Sounds like a failure of democracy and individual liberty to me. |
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Dude Love
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: reply |
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| Hello, luvnpeas. Not everyone alledges that the US leads the world in personal freedom and democracy. But sure, the US has all that nastiness at the beginning of its history. And now life there is much better. The USSR, on the other hand, the most enduring communist state in world history, lasted 77 years. Every communist state in the world is moving toward capitalist principles and life there is getting better (except for the DPRK, a much purer form of communism). Marxism/communism may have been well-intentioned at the beginning, but both have turned out to be grand failures. |
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