|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Mashimaro
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: location, location
|
 Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Does 'Self Help' work? |
 |
|
| mindmetoo wrote: |
But like education, most of us really, really do need professional help if we want to change our behavior.
|
Boy, I'm glad I didn't "need" professional help just to change myself. Think of thousands of dollars I saved in therapy bills by just picking up a few books.
For those with serious mental issues, sure books may not be enough, but they sure do help a lot of people. But I suppose you would dispute the fact that they help people, because they don't work right..
Im sure their must have been a lot of lot of studies done to support your claims too, I look forward to reading about those when you have the time to post some links.
I respect your opinion as just that, an opinion, but when you start talking about "proof" of something, you should be able to back it up.
Last edited by Mashimaro on Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Does 'Self Help' work? |
Yes, but it is entirely up to the individual.
| Quote: |
| Do you think there's any market for an intelligent person's [for that you can read "cynical person's"] self-help book? |
Alain de Botton wrote some books along that line. I read the one on how Proust can help your life. It had a few interesting ideas but was not that useful.
| Quote: |
| We have a good regime to teach reading and math. |
We do? News to me.
For discussions sake, I picked up a book a few months ago called "Triple your Reading Speed" by Wade Cutler. I've gone from reading at 200 words per minute to 700 wpm, with an increase in comprehension. The authour goes over how you were probably taught to read the wrong way, like I was.
People's learning strategies and motivations are massively different. One system will not encompass everyone.
| Quote: |
| We need professional help. |
Maybe you do. I donot learn foreign languages well in a classroom. I do much better on my own with some books and people to talk to.
I know its almost a cliche by now, but a book that has worked well for me is "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" by Stephen Covey. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Does 'Self Help' work? |
|
|
Not sure how they tested its efficiancy as AA is Anonymous. In addition, there is no god in AA, but rather a "higher power" which is something different. I've seen many people helped through the 12-step program. True, it's not for everybody, but some have benefited from it. The bottom line is any form of change is painful and one has to have a great deal of motivation to change their life. That is not an easy task.
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| ED209 wrote: |
Doesn't AA have a no higher success rate than trying to quit on your own?
I think that buying a book on stress or relationships just makes you feel better. A kind of placebo effect. Of course if you stand in room and do random breathing exercises you are going to feel less stressed, you're not working! |
Yeah, if AA keeps records it does not reveal its efficacy. Independent studies have shown AA basically doesn't work much better than a person making his/her own efforts. One of the keys to breaking the addiction is simply not hanging around with people always trying to thrust a beer in your hand. AA, of course, provides people with some place to go other than a pub. But its god based 10 step system has very little demonstrated effect.
I think the best disproof of the self help industry is the fact there are a thousand different titles and none seem to provide any widely applicable, lasting help. If it did, you'd think people would have locked into one by now. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bobbyhanlon
Joined: 09 Nov 2003
Location: 서울
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
if people got off their arses and actually did something, rather than reading these stupid books, then maybe they would be able to help themselves. that said, i would love to write one.. knock out a bunch of inane platitudes over a few weekends, and laugh all the way to the bank.
its no different with the endless stream of crap coming from management 'gurus'.. blue ocean strategy, my arse! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We have a good regime to teach reading and math. |
We do? News to me.
For discussions sake, I picked up a book a few months ago called "Triple your Reading Speed" by Wade Cutler. I've gone from reading at 200 words per minute to 700 wpm, with an increase in comprehension. The authour goes over how you were probably taught to read the wrong way, like I was.
People's learning strategies and motivations are massively different. One system will not encompass everyone.
| Quote: |
| We need professional help. |
Maybe you do. I donot learn foreign languages well in a classroom. I do much better on my own with some books and people to talk to.
|
Bravo for you but you also managed to cut out my qualifying statements. My comments are in regard to most of us. There are clearly exceptions. Thank you for restating what I already stated. Hope you feel better patting yourself on the back. We should all be so lucky to be like you.
I thought I couldn't make it more obvious but I guess I can:
| Quote: |
| But like education, most of us really, really do need professional help if we want to change our behavior. |
| Quote: |
| For the vast majority of people, the method we have for teaching reading, writing, and math works. |
| Quote: |
| Certainly for some tweaking the system can work. |
| Quote: |
| But in general, it works. |
| Quote: |
| However, I've noticed its very hard for most people to teach themselves math or how to read or another language. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Does 'Self Help' work? |
|
|
| Harpeau wrote: |
| Not sure how they tested its efficiancy as AA is Anonymous. |
People volunteer to be part of a study. Some people go to AA. Some people try to get themselves off alcohol. Some people do nothing. They check in some period of time later, comparing groups. How many have remained clean and sober over a given period of time? If AA was more effective, it should more people remaining sober over the given period of time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Does 'Self Help' work? |
|
|
| Mashimaro wrote: |
For those with serious mental issues, sure books may not be enough, but they sure do help a lot of people. But I suppose you would dispute the fact that they help people, because they don't work right..
Im sure their must have been a lot of lot of studies done to support your claims too, I look forward to reading about those when you have the time to post some links.
I respect your opinion as just that, an opinion, but when you start talking about "proof" of something, you should be able to back it up. |
Well, that's the thing. If you want to claim self help books work for more than a few people who might just get better implementing any regime, you need to provide the evidence. To wit, it's not the job of a drug company to get others to prove their drug isn't safe and effective.
My point of skepticism is:
1) It's obvious most people need outside help to learn new thing. Few people, other than super brilliant super sexy super intelligent ESL types, can change behaviors or learn new things on their own.
2) If there was a good self help system with a general success rate ike public education, why has no one published it yet? There may be a Lochness Monster but after a sufficient period of searching, the safe bet is there is no such thing.
3) There are some very basic human ideas we need in place before one can rationally follow a book to affect change. If a person is not capable of grasping basic concepts like love and friendship, there's little a book can do.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think half of it is BS and half of it is painfully self evident (dont act like a victim, treat others nicely, smile more)
On a side note, when I used to work for a bookstore in the states this very unattractive women barged in, slammed down a book with the receipt on top on my cashier's counter, and huffed "I WANT TO RETURN THIS"
When I looked down, the book was...
"How to make anyone fall in love with you."
It was sad.
I guess self help only goes so far. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mashimaro
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: location, location
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: Does 'Self Help' work? |
|
|
| Mashimaro wrote: |
For those with serious mental issues, sure books may not be enough, but they sure do help a lot of people. But I suppose you would dispute the fact that they help people, because they don't work right..
|
Im sure their must have been a lot of lot of studies done to support your claims too, I look forward to reading about those when you have the time to post some links.
I respect your opinion as just that, an opinion, but when you start talking about "proof" of something, you should be able to back it up.[/quote]
| mindmetoo wrote: |
Well, that's the thing. If you want to claim self help books work for more than a few people who might just get better implementing any regime, you need to provide the evidence. To wit, it's not the job of a drug company to get others to prove their drug isn't safe and effective.
|
I expected this cop out. I only offered my personal opinions, you are the one who started talking about proof that it doesn't work.. therefore I'd say the onus is on you to backup your claims.
| mindmetoo wrote: |
My point of skepticism is:
1) It's obvious most people need outside help to learn new thing. Few people, other than super brilliant super sexy super intelligent ESL types, can change behaviors or learn new things on their own.
|
That is a very defeatist attitude. Of course many, many people can change on their own. What did people do before we had overpriced psychoanalysts etc. Did Abraham Lincholn use a therapist to become the man he did, after achieving very little the first 40 years of his life? Anyone can change themselves if they really want to.
| mindmetoo wrote: |
2) If there was a good self help system with a general success rate ike public education, why has no one published it yet? There may be a Lochness Monster but after a sufficient period of searching, the safe bet is there is no such thing.
|
Since when was public education considered a success? It seems to fail a heck of a lot of people. It's a system that only really seems to reward mediocrity.
| mindmetoo wrote: |
3) There are some very basic human ideas we need in place before one can rationally follow a book to affect change. If a person is not capable of grasping basic concepts like love and friendship, there's little a book can do.
|
I take your point that some people need more than a book, but they are in the minority. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: Does 'Self Help' work? |
|
|
| Mashimaro wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
Well, that's the thing. If you want to claim self help books work for more than a few people who might just get better implementing any regime, you need to provide the evidence. To wit, it's not the job of a drug company to get others to prove their drug isn't safe and effective.
|
I expected this cop out. I only offered my personal opinions, you are the one who started talking about proof that it doesn't work.. therefore I'd say the onus is on you to backup your claims. |
I think I stated that there was little proof AA was effective. Yes I did waggishly quip "proof of disproof" but I was only speaking with humor. A lack of results is not ultimate proof of the negative position. However, like I stated in a follow up, if you keep searching and don't find something, eventually the safe bet tilts.
In sum, I don't claim to have proof self help is not effective. Based on a lack of obvious results (a new pop self help regime every year), I'm skeptical. It's not a cop out. It's just science. Provide the evidence.
| Quote: |
mindmetoo wrote:
2) If there was a good self help system with a general success rate ike public education, why has no one published it yet? There may be a Lochness Monster but after a sufficient period of searching, the safe bet is there is no such thing.
Since when was public education considered a success? It seems to fail a heck of a lot of people. It's a system that only really seems to reward mediocrity. |
Well, we can get into definitions about what "general success" means. Given North America enjoys a very high rate of literacy, one it didn't enjoy prior to the introduction of free public education, I would rate that as a success. It would be nicer if kids in grade 10 could all write and read at a grade 10 level, but the point is, the regime does turn out literate people in the vast majority.
| Quote: |
mindmetoo wrote:
My point of skepticism is:
1) It's obvious most people need outside help to learn new thing. Few people, other than super brilliant super sexy super intelligent ESL types, can change behaviors or learn new things on their own.
That is a very defeatist attitude. Of course many, many people can change on their own. What did people do before we had overpriced psychoanalysts etc. Did Abraham Lincholn use a therapist to become the man he did, after achieving very little the first 40 years of his life? Anyone can change themselves if they really want to. |
Again, I'm talking about large bodies of people. You're giving an example of an exceptional individual. I'm sure before psychotherapy people turned to their family or their church to aid them in change. My thesis is the majority of people are not capable of "self help" in almost anything and require a teacher or a guide. Where people are left to teach themselves reading, math, Korean, or piano, not many progress. Where people have schools and an established regime, the majority progress.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shetan
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Location: In front of my PC.
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
From School for Scoundrels
How many of you have self-help books? Okay that's your first problem. You can't help yourself, because your self sucks!
haha |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
periwinkle
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I love self help books. My dad made me read Women Who Love Too Much when I was 16 because I was exhibiting signs of co-dependency (eg. my dad forbid me from dating this guy who was very self-destructive, and I thought my dad was being judgemental and unfair. Meh. Long story....). Anyway, I saw my dad was right after reading that book, and it explained a lot of things for me. I haven't been in a co-dependent relationship since, and that book saved me from a lot of future grief. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
periwinkle
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ChopChaeJoe wrote: |
| Can somebody lend me some money? |
Try e-begging on the internet. I watched 20/20 on Sunday, and they were interviewing a girl who managed to get $13,000 off ppl on the 'net in order to pay off debt she accumulated while feeding her habit of shopping for expensive shoes and bags.   |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 2:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| periwinkle wrote: |
| I love self help books. My dad made me read Women Who Love Too Much when I was 16 because I was exhibiting signs of co-dependency (eg. my dad forbid me from dating this guy who was very self-destructive, and I thought my dad was being judgemental and unfair. Meh. Long story....). Anyway, I saw my dad was right after reading that book, and it explained a lot of things for me. I haven't been in a co-dependent relationship since, and that book saved me from a lot of future grief. |
I never read that book. I need the one called "Why I love women so much". I am just kidding to inject some humour, but I can understand how many people want some kind of approval or love from others which can be destructive. We can see it in Korea, for example, with all these girls trying to have bigger eyes which I find terrible because I think many Koreans have such cute eyes. Western girls sometimes feel they need to be anorexic to be all right. I am glad that book helped give you a certain perspective and your father helped you out. Family when they are there for you the biggest self-help in our lives.
I am trying to think of self-help that influenced me. Again, I would say that religious books including the Bible are self-help books in a way, but they add the idea of going to salvation just as Buddhism talks of Nirvana.
I believe in focusing a lot on the here and now. I also sometimes like to meditate. What I gained from the Bible, for example, is this found in John: "He who says he loves God but not his brother, do not believe him"
I also enjoyed reading ideas from Taoism such as to do rather than to just think. There is also that idea of "As a man thinketh".
I also remember pondering how that we all suffer in our own ways just as we proper, have fun. So many things we thought were bad turned out to be good, and I enjoyed reading examples about that. I also learned to let go of some anger I had to people who maybe were pretty bad in their own ways and forget about them and let them go.
It takes bravery to talk about your experiences on this board.... Look, I think when you talk to a friend and ask for advice it is like reading a book with someone's ideas. No book is the same, no advice is perfect without you tailoring it to you and the books aren't going to be the same, the writers are not going to be either. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
