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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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 Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:03 am Post subject: ... |
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And all this is coming from the poster who started out on this board complaining about accounts that portray Colombus in a harsher light.
A flip.
Then, he doesn't like the book he's using because it romanticizes Philip II.
A flop.
Of course, he doesn't want people making one-sided statements.
A flip flop.
But he takes a discussion of giant wombats to blubber on about the Left and how it ruins everything.
A flop flip. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: |
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This responds to another poster's pm. She or he noted that while I often defend the United States against other posters' accusations and allegations, I have never heaped praise onto the Americans the way Menchu praises pre-Contact Native Americans (see above).
I thought this would be a good opportunity to clarify my views on this in the open forum.
I quoted for the first time on this forum Marc Bloch on this thread. French historian. Founder of the famous Annales School. Died, murdered actually, while actively resisting Nazi occupation after having written Historian's Craft virtually by candlelight with no library/research aids.
I think I more closely identify with Bloch and the Annales School than any other philosophical trend.
So, yeah, it is not that I admire or praise anyone, including the United States. If you ask me to produce a moral judgment, for example, I will tell you that I find the Iraqi War immoral. But the constant negative judging, especially the righteous judging, annoys me. Not only that. But no one has clean hands in human affairs, thus the judgmentalism strikes me as not only shallow but pretextual. And, in any case, praising or blaming does not contribute to understanding anything better.
And this, again, has much merit to me...
| Marc Bloch wrote: |
| Robespierrists! Anti-Robespierrists! For pity's sake, simply tell us what Robespierre was... |
Finally: Nowhere Man.
Nowhere Man seems to be dominated by the same black-and-white, either/or, simplistic worldview as the man he so bitterly hates. It is unfortunate that you lack all ability to appreciate nuance and indeed, independent thought and positions, Nowhere Man. You truly cannot even see the least common denominator in what you yourself just posted, can you?
C'est la vie. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: ... |
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If you ask me to produce a moral judgment, for example, I will tell you that I find the Iraqi War immoral.
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A flip.
But he's glad the Brits joined in.
A flop.
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Leftist mythmaking and the language of blame do not help us with the problems environmental history and environmentalism in general present, then. We need to leave the left's childish and pointless villifying, praising, and judging behind and instead talk business.
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A flip.
| Quote: |
| But the constant negative judging, especially the righteous judging, annoys me. |
A flop. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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I believe you accused Columbus of personally raping and personally murdering Natives. And I called you on it. Apparently you still hold a grudge.
I can almost hear your heavy nose-breathing again. Relax, Nowhere Man. You will live longer.
Still though, it is good to have fans -- even bitter, hate-oriented, unimaginative and narrow-minded ones like yourself. 
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher, do you really think that the kind of revisionism you have railed against in this thread is exclusive to 'leftists'? While it's true that the pre-colonial Garden-of-Edenism associated with the identity politics of indigenous peoples tends to come from (and yes, is often endorsed by some in) the left, essentially it has much in common with discourses involved in holocaust denial, creationism, Korean nationalism, as well as apologia from Japanese Uyoku and others that would defend past aggressions and colonialism. All of these groups, in their need for a history that confirms their contemporary narratives reject evidence that contradicts acceptable myths, and tend to adopt a victimised stance in response to unacceptable evidence. As I've said, my feeling is that this isn't so much about your disliked 'left' as a whole as it is about identity politics in general. What are your thoughts on this? |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Gopher, do you really think that the kind of revisionism you have railed against in this thread is exclusive to 'leftists'? While it's true that the pre-colonial Garden-of-Edenism associated with the identity politics of indigenous peoples tends to come from (and yes, is often endorsed by some in) the left, essentially it has much in common with discourses involved in holocaust denial, creationism, Korean nationalism, as well as apologia from Japanese Uyoku and others that would defend past aggressions and colonialism. All of these groups, in their need for a history that confirms their contemporary narratives reject evidence that contradicts acceptable myths, and tend to adopt a victimised stance in response to unacceptable evidence. As I've said, my feeling is that this isn't so much about your disliked 'left' as a whole as it is about identity politics in general. What are your thoughts on this? |
So, professor, what you're saying is that its all bulldoo-doo? |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| So, professor, what you're saying is that its all bulldoo-doo? |
Depends what you mean by 'it'.
And why would you call me 'professor'? Ugh. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Just joking about the 'professor'. I thought the verbage, although clear, could have been slightly dumbed-down for the 'great unwashed', which is how my father used to refer to the masses. Just my own personal preference for straight-talking when possible. Forget it.
And by 'it', I meant groups' self-identities vis-a-vis there own histories. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| What are your thoughts on this? |
Gang ah jee: could be. I have fully expressed my thoughts on the particular issue this particular thread treats.
You ask me about "railing" when I would describe it as forcefully objecting. Whatever. But how, then, do you propose we treat such claims and allegations as Menchu has put forward...? Claims that Natives did not kill or war until White Men forced them to learn? Claims that Menchu's anscestors used to talk to local animals, kind of like in a Disney film? or that they all lived in communes where even men and women acted as pure equals, with no sexual discrimination or mistreatment...? (These and other similar claims pervade her autobiography, by the way.)
You cite other examples of the same thing, from different ideological points of view. I must confess not having followed each of them, so I have little to contribute to some of what you say, above.
And of course this fault is not exclusive to the left. You think I have no objections when Nancy Reagan and other sympathizers talk about "Ronnie?" And sometimes leftists drift over to the right-wing in their zealousness. One professor commented the other day that Chomsky had no idea what he was talking about when he defended twentieth-century Japanese moves in East Asia as moves merely designed to liberate the area from Western Europe's imperialist grip...
But, however that may be, the left is undeniably implicated in much unwarranted romanticization of Native peoples and cultures, and mostly as a pretext for their anti-capitalist and at times antiWestern and antiAmerican agendas. For this reason Native contributions, perhaps even decisive contributions, in the megafaunal extinctions and other related ecological devastation this thread treats do not go over well with them -- indeed, many stubbornly refuse to look the data in the face.
As far as the other issues you raise, why not start threads on them and let's explore them? How about one on the implications of the Maori-Moriori encounter...?
Before you do, though, do you not think I have already made my views on the Holocaust-deniers clear enough? |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| ... do you not think I have already made my views on the Holocaust-deniers clear enough? |
Oh, I wasn't meaning to imply that you're somehow sympathetic to holocaust-deniers or various other issues associated with the right. My point was more that blaming 'leftists' as a group for garden-of-edenism seems about as fair as blaming the 'right' for creationism or holocaust denial or colonial apologia etc. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| But the constant negative judging, especially the righteous judging, annoys me. |
Flip
| Quote: |
| But, however that may be, the left is undeniably implicated in much unwarranted romanticization of Native peoples and cultures, and mostly as a pretext for their anti-capitalist and at times antiWestern and antiAmerican agendas. |
Flop |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| My point was more that blaming 'leftists' as a group for garden-of-edenism seems about as fair as blaming the 'right' for creationism or holocaust denial or colonial apologia etc. |
But I have no problem recognizing those who promote so-called creationism and also, to cite another of their issues, "pro-life," and why.
Right-wingers, NeoNazis and other antisemites and, especially now, the Iranian govt are behind the contemporary Holocaust-denial movement. Is their agenda not clear to you? Can you not easily pick it out when they speak or write on this issue?
"Colonial apologia?" Who is arguing that position these days? And where, pray tell?
No matter, it sounds to me like you might have contracted a bit of Mithridates's downplayitis.
There are leftists and there is a far-right, Gang ah jee. They have agendas that they actively prosecute, especially in my discipline. No need to speak about them in quotation marks as if they were more imaginary than real.
I would not think that one needed to view this picture of now-deceased University Professor Edward W. Said literally throwing a rock at Israel to grasp this...
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:45 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| There are leftists and there is a far-right, Gang ah jee. They have agendas that they actively prosecute, especially in my discipline. |
| Quote: |
| I can almost hear your heavy nose-breathing again. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
But I have no problem recognizing those who promote so-called creationism and also, to cite another of their issues, "pro-life," and why.
Right-wingers, NeoNazis and other antisemites and, especially now, the Iranian govt are behind the contemporary Holocaust-denial movement. Is their agenda not clear to you? Can you not easily pick it out when they speak or write on this issue? |
To me, I'd say that the major difference between right wing revisionism and that on the left that romanticises indigenous culture is that I view the former as much more pernicious than the latter. I'd say that you tend associate the latter with your hated antiAmericanism, and see things the other way around.
| Quote: |
| "Colonial apologia?" Who is arguing that position these days? And where, pray tell? |
In particular I was thinking of the Japanese Uyoku (right wing) groups, who wish to highlight Imperial Japan's benevolent motivations in the first half of the 20th century. And of course informally, I'm in a position to hear a certain amount of 'who are those Maori to complain, if it wasn't for us they'd still be running around in grass skirts eating each other'. I'd be surprised if such arguments don't have a certain amount of currency elsewhere.
| Quote: |
| There are leftists and there is a far-right, Gang ah jee. They have agendas that they actively prosecute, especially in my discipline. No need to speak about them in quotation marks as if they were more imaginary than real. |
Huh? You more than most should understand that the notions of 'left' and 'right' are massive oversimplifications of very complex positions. I guess I find their use as labels a bit more problematic than you. Interesting as well your contrast of 'leftist' with 'a far right'. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| ...notions of 'left' and 'right' are massive oversimplifications of very complex positions. I guess I find their use as labels a bit more problematic than you. Interesting as well your contrast of 'leftist' with 'a far right'. |
"The left," "the far left," and "a leftist" have clear meaning, at least in the American academe.
"The far right" and "the right-wing" do, too.
I believe you know this, Gang ah jee. I think you might be upset that I have put the left on the spot in this thread. The left, almost always allegation-driven, prefers it the other way around.
And while not everyone's views neatly fit into one or the other of these admitedly artificial and dichotomous categories even in such polarized times as we are currently living in (and I can say with confidence that, on this board, neither mine, On the Other Hand, Kuros, or Bucheon Bum's do, for example). But I would say that only someone unreasonably committed to an oppositionist position would argue that there are not at least some -- and some of those some are under discussion in this thread -- do not really exist.
Do you really mean to suggest that someone like your beloved Coulter does not squarely fit into one of these categories, Gang ah jee? How about if I told you I was planning on posting a Guardian or Counterpunch op-ed piece on Israel...? How about a new book from Britain's Verso Press on American foreign relations? Or Australia's Ocean or Oceanview Press? How about a new Michael Moore film treating the W. Bush Administration or the Iraqi War? Did Hitchens's book on Kissinger come as a surprise to you in any way? Or to go back to the other side of your imaginary fence, how about a Bill O'Riley "talking points" memo on Hillary Clinton's campaign? An Oliver North report from the ground in Iraq? Are you telling me that you would really have a hard time predicting these sources' slant and conclusions? If not, why not?
Also, I would still like an answer to the question I posed about Menchu, above.
And finally, I have never heard anyone exploiting or developing the White-Man's-burden position you articulate above. That was a nineteenth-century phenomenon that died by the mid-twentieth. Can you cite any specific cases in the last five to ten years where anyone at all has argued that position, Gang ah jee? |
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