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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: Is Yoga in School a Violation of Church/State Separation? |
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I saw this article on MSN this morning and thought it might be an interesting discussion, especially in light of Rteacher's presence on the board.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16859368/wid/11915773?GT1=8921
In about 1980 I attended a few yoga classes and learned a few postures during the summer I went to the University of Northern Colorado for some courses in psychology. One of the psych classes was Biofeedback so we did things with EEGs, progressive relaxation and hypnotism.
In the fall when I went back to school I added a unit on stress control to my course. The kids loved it and it was fun to teach. Everyone's 2 favorite days were Yoga Day and Progressive Relaxation Day when they brought their blankets and we went to the music room (because it was carpeted). On PR Day almost everyone went to sleep. The funniest bit was when Study Hall kids, having heard about it, would ask me to put them to sleep. We'd turn out the lights and I'd go through the progressive relaxation procedure and soon have most of them snoring at their desks. Sure solved all the issues of class control.
With yoga, I did strip it of all religious references and allow any kid who didn't want to participate to go to the library for that time. We never got official complaints from parents, but there were parents who did object on religious grounds. They claimed yoga was still a dangerous religious thing dealing with mind control.
Is yoga in school a violation of the separation of Church and State? |
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Missile Command Kid
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Location: Daegu
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Is yoga in school a violation of the separation of Church and State? |
Absolutely. Yoga is worship, being an essential component of both Hinduism and Buddhism. If you prayed in a school and took out all references to the Christian God, it would still be a religious activity. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Missile Command Kid wrote: |
Quote: |
Is yoga in school a violation of the separation of Church and State? |
Absolutely. Yoga is worship, being an essential component of both Hinduism and Buddhism. If you prayed in a school and took out all references to the Christian God, it would still be a religious activity. |
How about whirling? That's an essential component of Dervishism. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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OOPS!
This was supposed to be in the Current Affairs forum. Maybe the mods will move it. |
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Missile Command Kid
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Location: Daegu
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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huffdaddy wrote: |
How about whirling? That's an essential component of Dervishism. |
If it's taught by a Sufi, then yes, it is a violation of church and state. If it's instinctively done by a three year old, I think it's safe to say that it's acceptable. |
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Omkara

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Good question.
I'm a yoga teacher, and I come up with similar concerns often. I teach to a general population in a gym, and have to minimize the spirituality so as not to spook anyone. Some equate the spiritual aspects of yoga with the sacrifice of black chickens. There is a lot of superstition, though I don't think it is recognized as such.
I really think that it'd be okay to teach asana (posture) and relaxation in school. They can be taught as physical exercises.
Yoga has eight limbs, of which asana is but one. People confuse the part with the whole. Yoga practiced bereft the other seven limbs is not yoga, but stretching and relaxation. It is only popular language which calls that yoga.
However, all eight limbs can be integrated into the practice of asana. But this should not be thrust upon anyone and should be left out of public school settings. Only those who are seeking yoga's deeper teaching ought to be taught the other seven limbs. |
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Omkara

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: "I've talked to too many people who got hooked on the spiritual deception of yoga. They come to believe in this and become enamored with Hinduism or eastern mysticism," he said."
I sure got hooked! I mean compare: "The paths are many, but the truth is One," to "I am the way, the truth and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except by me."
Deception! Indeed. Damn the tolerant!
(Let me add that there are some Christians who practice yoga perfectly, though they do not know it. It is the yoga of devotion, bhakti. Practiced rightly, it leads to enlightenment.) |
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Missile Command Kid
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Location: Daegu
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Omkara wrote: |
I really think that it'd be okay to teach asana (posture) and relaxation in school. They can be taught as physical exercises. |
Prayer is a type of meditation. Would you feel comfortable if there were praying classes in school, classes in which words such as "Oh greater being, we worship and adore you. We come to you with our concerns and our problems. We wish to do what you want us to do in our lives." That's stripping out the "religion" out of prayer. Acceptable?
Also, relaxation isn't a physical exercise; it's a mental exercise. This is where you're running into problems. |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Missile Command Kid wrote: |
huffdaddy wrote: |
How about whirling? That's an essential component of Dervishism. |
If it's taught by a Sufi, then yes, it is a violation of church and state. If it's instinctively done by a three year old, I think it's safe to say that it's acceptable. |
What if it's taught by a non-Sufi dance teacher? |
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Missile Command Kid
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Location: Daegu
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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huffdaddy wrote: |
What if it's taught by a non-Sufi dance teacher? |
You mean, in the context of dance instead of the context of relaxation or meditation? I think you answered your own question. |
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Omkara

Joined: 18 Feb 2006 Location: USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Missile Command Kid wrote: |
Omkara wrote: |
I really think that it'd be okay to teach asana (posture) and relaxation in school. They can be taught as physical exercises. |
Prayer is a type of meditation. Would you feel comfortable if there were praying classes in school, classes in which words such as "Oh greater being, we worship and adore you. We come to you with our concerns and our problems. We wish to do what you want us to do in our lives." That's stripping out the "religion" out of prayer. Acceptable?
Also, relaxation isn't a physical exercise; it's a mental exercise. This is where you're running into problems. |
I get the last point. I don't see where my problem is. Moreover, the distinction as you've qualified it is incorrect.
Prayer does not belong in the classroom. But concentration does. Children are not likely to meditate. Meditation requires much practice. The best they'll do is concentrate. |
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Missile Command Kid
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Location: Daegu
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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Omkara wrote: |
I get the last point. I don't see where my problem is. |
Physical exercise is benign, but when you start to talk about exercising the mind, you're going to run into opposition, period. Why do you think that teachers study for so long and pass so many tests/interviews/checks in order to work with children? Moreover, there's a reason why certain subjects are allowed and not allowed in classrooms. Sufi Islam is one example brought up in this thread: teaching the act of whirling might (and I'm stressing might here - I reserve the right to change my mind later) not be a problem, but teaching the philosophical bases behind whirling will run you into problems with nearly every school board in the West.
Omkara wrote: |
Prayer does not belong in the classroom. But concentration does. Children are not likely to meditate. Meditation requires much practice. The best they'll do is concentrate. |
I'm a Christian and believe that prayer shouldn't be forced upon students in the classroom; methinks your own spiritual background is blinding you on this issue. What's the difference between prayer (focused outward) and meditation (focused inward)? You're making a semantical point in an attempt to divide prayer and meditation. Like it or not, Yoga and meditation is a religious/spiritual practice. If you want to teach concentration, there are activities you can do in the classroom that do not hint at religious/spiritual trappings. Finally, you absolutely must consider the wills of the students' parents, and not just your own personal beliefs. Instead of discussing this issue with us, it needs to be discussed with the principal, school board, and parents. |
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Zolt

Joined: 18 May 2006
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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If it does not imply weird clothing or hair items, ritual mutilation , and/or donating vast amounts of money, it's not a real religion anyway.
Fine by me to do in school. They do far worse things there. |
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Missile Command Kid
Joined: 17 Jul 2006 Location: Daegu
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Zolt wrote: |
If it does not imply weird clothing or hair items, ritual mutilation , and/or donating vast amounts of money, it's not a real religion anyway. |
Just because it's not a religion, it doesn't mean that it isn't a spiritual practice or practical philosophy. As I said before, there are reasons why teachers are scrutinised before they're allowed in a classroom. For some, students need to be protected from teachers who'd want to teach them about Christianity. For others, students need to be protected from teachers who'd want to teach them about Buddhism/Hinduism. Same difference. |
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Rteacher

Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA
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Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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The origninal idea of "separation of church and state" was to prevent the establishment of an official state church. The government should not favor any particular religious sect. Faith and trust in God was an obvious given, so governmental promotion of non-sectarian religious values should be constitutionally allowed...
Throughout the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries there was institutionalized prayer in American public schools with little or no controversy...
Unfortunately, the U.S. constitutionally changed for the worse by some misguided Supreme Court decisions...
By the early 1960s, in response to complaints lodged mostly by Jews and atheists (and atheistic Jews...) that Christian teachers and administrators were imposing their religious values, the Supreme Court made a couple landmark decisions that effectively barred "staff-sponsored" prayer in public schools:
... Following these two landmark cases came the Court's decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman [1971]. This ruling established the so-called "Lemon test" which states that in order to be constitutional under the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment any practice sponsored within public schools must: 1) have a secular purpose, 2) must neither advance nor inhibit religion, and 3) must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion...
However, student-initiated religious expression has not (yet) been barred:
...Regarding the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, the courts have consistently ruled that students' expressions of religious views through prayer or otherwise cannot be abridged unless they can be shown to cause substantial disruption in the school. Reinstatement of state-sponsored prayer has been attempted in different forms in a number of areas of the U.S. Few areas allow oral prayer, but some introduced a "moment of silence" or "moment of reflection" when a student may, if he or she wishes to, offer a silent prayer...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer#United_States
Hey, if yoga doesn't qualify under the "Free Exercise" clause, what does? Of course, the legal issue would still be whether-or-not it's a "staff-sponsored" or "student-initiated" religious expression, so probably yoga classes that progress beyond basic physical exercises (and into spiritual meditation) could only legally be done in after-school clubs...
Politically, some evangelist Christian and conservative Jewish groups steadfastly oppose anything that lets young people access anything smacking of eastern mysticism, yoga or spirituality, knowing well their power to attract intelligent students ...
And atheists - clinging tenuously to new-found intellectual respectability grounded in the philosophical extension of evolution theory - naturally oppose anything that might inject any notion of spirit into their (godless) materialistic theories (which currently dominate science classes...) |
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