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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: Iran/Israel |
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A few months back Big Bird started a topic about if the prez if Iran actually said he wanted to "wipe off" the map a certain nation. The below is from Reuters "the good, the bad and the ugly" which is a forum for people to ask questions to the Reuters editors. The question is in bold, and Reuters response is in italics.
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Iran president says Israel�s days are numbered
�Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out,� he added.
You continue to report that �Iran�s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called for Israel to be �wiped off the map�� even though many Mideast experts have stated that the interpretation of what Ahmadinejad actually said was that the �Zionist regime will not last.�
In other words, rather than calling for ethnic cleansing, as your news stories imply, Iranian officials are calling for regime change�a common enough phrase these days. Are your reporters and editors deliberately misinforming the public?
Jan
We actually had access to this speech, and heard the president�s words verbatim from our own TV footage. We stand behind our translation. In this case, he used the word �mahv,� which in Farsi means �wiped off�: Editor |
http://today.reuters.com/news/GBUStories.aspx
Now you know. He is advocating genocide, and not "governmental change". |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Do you have the full phrase/sentence?
cbc |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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It refers to a regime.
Do you have any more?
It's just kinda weak.
Though it would stand to reason that the guy who hosts a holocaust denial conference would engage in that sort of rhetoric.
cbc |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
It refers to a regime.
Do you have any more?
It's just kinda weak.
Though it would stand to reason that the guy who hosts a holocaust denial conference would engage in that sort of rhetoric.
cbc |
There it is. It's not so much about the debatable translation, but about the actions that came before and after the quote. The way he acts shows what he was implying in that speech. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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The "Zionist regime" is the state of Israel. I suppose he could mean the he is going to destroy the state of Israel, or "push Israel into the sea" and leave the physical land relatively in tact. But I do wonder how "wipe off" cannot suggest an end to the people living in the area. Clearly he has moved beyond demanding a retreat to '67 borders and wants the state gone. What else could this mean?
BB had suggested that all he wanted was a new "partner in peace" representing the good people of Israel. Clearly, now, she is wrong. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:26 am Post subject: Re: for Big Bird |
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How lovely, a thread all for me? I've only just spotted it, but better late than never. Now...what the devil are you trying to demonstrate here:
| BJWD wrote: |
A few months back Big Bird started a topic about if the prez if Iran actually said he wanted to "wipe off" the map a certain nation. The below is from Reuters "the good, the bad and the ugly" which is a forum for people to ask questions to the Reuters editors. The question is in bold, and Reuters response is in italics.
| Quote: |
Iran president says Israel�s days are numbered
�Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out,� he added.
You continue to report that �Iran�s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called for Israel to be �wiped off the map�� even though many Mideast experts have stated that the interpretation of what Ahmadinejad actually said was that the �Zionist regime will not last.�
In other words, rather than calling for ethnic cleansing, as your news stories imply, Iranian officials are calling for regime change�a common enough phrase these days. Are your reporters and editors deliberately misinforming the public?
Jan
We actually had access to this speech, and heard the president�s words verbatim from our own TV footage. We stand behind our translation. In this case, he used the word �mahv,� which in Farsi means �wiped off�: Editor |
http://today.reuters.com/news/GBUStories.aspx
Now you know. He is advocating genocide, and not "governmental change". |
Let's look at the title.
| Quote: |
| Iran president says Israel�s days are numbered |
The title appears to be a rather loose interpretation of what was said. And yet you are taking it as a precise translation of something said by Ahmadinejad. Careful boy!
Let's look closely: "Israel�s days are numbered"
Hmmmm. Yet the translations I've read refer to the occupying Zionist regime. You could just as easily (and more accurately) interpret that to say to he is predicting that there will be a regime change in Israel.
Here is a webpage containing 2 translations of what was said: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm
That article also points out:
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But to commute a demand for removal of a 'regime' into a demand for removal of a state is serious deception and dangerous demagogy.
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Advocating genocide eh? I think that is one little jump of 'logic' too far.
You haven't provided anything new BJWD.
You've also included this response by 'Jan' which contradicts what you are trying to convey to me:
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You continue to report that �Iran�s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has called for Israel to be �wiped off the map�� even though many Mideast experts have stated that the interpretation of what Ahmadinejad actually said was that the �Zionist regime will not last.�
In other words, rather than calling for ethnic cleansing, as your news stories imply, Iranian officials are calling for regime change�a common enough phrase these days. Are your reporters and editors deliberately misinforming the public?
Jan |
Last edited by Big_Bird on Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: Re: for Big Bird |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Now you know. He is advocating genocide, and not "governmental change". |
Funny, I don't recall the Soviet Union being wiped out by genocide. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Here is what Juan Cole has to say on the subject.
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The phrase he then used as I read it is "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."
Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope-- that the occupation of Jerusalem was no more a continued inevitability than had been the hegemony of the Shah's government.
Whatever this quotation from a decades-old speech of Khomeini may have meant, Ahmadinejad did not say that "Israel must be wiped off the map" with the implication that phrase has of Nazi-style extermination of a people. He said that the occupation regime over Jerusalem must be erased from the page of time.
Again, Ariel Sharon erased the occupation regime over Gaza from the page of time.
I should again underline that I personally despise everything Ahmadinejad stands for, not to mention the odious Khomeini, who had personal friends of mine killed so thoroughly that we have never recovered their bodies. Nor do I agree that the Israelis have no legitimate claim on any part of Jerusalem |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Another source of information for those who prefer to find out for themselves and not take BJWD's outbursts for fact:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jonathan_steele/2006/06/post_155.html
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If the Iranian president made a mistake and used "safheh" rather than "sahneh", that is of little moment. A native English speaker could equally confuse "stage of history" with "page of history". The significant issue is that both phrases refer to time rather than place. As I wrote in my original post, the Iranian president was expressing a vague wish for the future. He was not threatening an Iranian-initiated war to remove Israeli control over Jerusalem.
Two other well-established translation sources confirm that Ahmadinejad was referring to time, not place. The version of the October 26 2005 speech put out by the Middle East Media Research Institute, based on the Farsi text released by the official Iranian Students News Agency, says: "This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history." (NB: not "wiped". I accept that "eliminated" is almost the same, indeed some might argue it is more sinister than "wiped", though it is a bit more of a mouthful if you are trying to find four catchy and easily memorable words with which to incite anger against Iran.)
MEMRI (its text of the speech is available here) is headed by a former Isareli military intelligence officer and has sometimes been attacked for alleged distortion of Farsi and Arabic quotations for the benefit of Israeli foreign policy. On this occasion they supported the doveish view of what Ahmadinejad said.
Finally we come to the BBC monitoring service which every day puts out hundreds of highly respected English translations of broadcasts from all round the globe to their subscribers - mainly governments, intelligence services, thinktanks and other specialists. I approached them this week about the controversy and a spokesperson for the monitoring service's marketing unit, who did not want his name used, told me their original version of the Ahmadinejad quote was "eliminated from the map of the world". |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: |
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Iran president says Israel�s days are numbered
This was a headline. I'm surprised that all the highly educated folk on this forum never seem to heard about that little interesting fact in the news business: Headlines are attention-getting titles written by specialized folks called headline writers. It's absurd (at best) to try to turn a headline into an actual quote.
�Just as the Soviet Union was wiped out and today does not exist, so will the Zionist regime soon be wiped out,� he added.
So when did they practice genocide against the Russians and push them all into the sea? I guess I missed buying a newspaper that day.   |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Yet another article for those who'd like to investigate for themselves.
"WIPED OFF THE MAP" - The Rumor of the Century
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Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran's President has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, "Israel must be wiped off the map". Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made, as the following article will prove.
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:46 am Post subject: Re: for Big Bird |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
| Now you know. He is advocating genocide, and not "governmental change". |
Funny, I don't recall the Soviet Union being wiped out by genocide. |
You really think he is talking only about governmental change? Really? What, he is going to sponsor a referendum? Like this?
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"I agree that Israel should now become a muslim country run by Iran"
I Don't agree that Israel should become a mulsim country run by Iran".
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And the Jews will pick #2? Get real.
He is leading dumb lefties on. Useful idiots, do you remember that phrase? The western left fell over itself in praise of the communists. And they are doing the same for muslims and iran. They were wrong then, and they are wrong now.
He is building nukes with the intention of using them on Israel. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
Yet another article for those who'd like to investigate for themselves.
"WIPED OFF THE MAP" - The Rumor of the Century
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Across the world, a dangerous rumor has spread that could have catastrophic implications. According to legend, Iran's President has threatened to destroy Israel, or, to quote the misquote, "Israel must be wiped off the map". Contrary to popular belief, this statement was never made, as the following article will prove.
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Reuters says HE DID SAY WIPED OFF. Look at the OP.
You are worse that IGTG! |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
If Iran succeeds and nukes the jews, will you still justify their behaviour and defend their words? |
Aren't you jumping the gun?
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=67&ItemID=11963
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| And what a threat it is! Admittedly, Iran doesn�t possess a single nuclear weapon, and won�t have one for some years even if it is trying to get one, which its religious leaders vigorously deny. If it got a nuclear weapon it couldn�t use it except in desperate self-defense as both Israel and the United States have many nuclear bombs and superior delivery systems, so that any offensive use of its nuclear weapon(s) would entail Iranian national suicide. It may be recalled that Saddam used his WMD only against Iran and his Kurds, but not even in self-defense during the 1991 Persian Gulf war attack on Iraq by the United States and its �coalition��the former use was with U.S. approval, the latter case of non-use was because Saddam would have suffered disproportionate retaliation by the United States and his restraint followed. This point is not made in the establishment media, possibly because it would seem to qualify the Iran nuclear menace. |
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