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IS SENATOR JOHN KERRY REALLY A PATRIOT?
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wannago

Joined: 16 Apr 2004

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:12 am Post subject:

gang ah jee wrote:

wannago wrote:

'Tis the truth. I'm not saying this directly to alfy because I don't know his/her situation, but people get all hopped up over having a hummer accident and get all indignant about how they took one for the nation. Just giving a gentle reminder. Wink

Would you say that to a humvee accident widow?

And what kind of injuries did you experience when you were in the service?

If she tried to equate it to a combat death....I probably still wouldn't say it to her out of some human compassion (unless she were a Cindy Sheehan type).

I had an ingrown toenail a couple of times and had to have my nail bed chemically burned out. Where's my purple heart?

stevemcgarrett

Joined: 24 Mar 2006

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:02 am Post subject:

mith:

Quote:

That's a pretty weak definition of a patriot.

Actually, I agree with you, although perhaps for different reasons. For me, this is a minimum expectation.

Quote:

no soldiers came home in body bags:

True enough but different circumstances, I think we can agree. But according to the liberal protest mindset on this forum it was still a campaign beset with considerable "collateral damage."

mateo:

Swiss is apt, as in cheese, as in full of holes.

BJWD:

Quote:

He doesn't have to like the decisions of his government to like his country

Fair enough but was it appropriate to lash out in that particular international venue and to brand America (as opposed to the present administration) delinquent? That's the kernel of my concern.

bum:

Got my degrees in a vending machine at the Bangkok Airport. I think I said that before. Well now, wait, one came from a correspondence course. First I had to draw a sketch of a fawn.

alffy:

Ah, you're back, and I see you've licked your wounds and put the socks back on. Still nothing to contribute substantively to the discussion, eh?

DD:

Always appreciate your quotes from Bartlett's. Good to see you're letting someone else do the thinking for you. Now kindly address the question rather than skirt it.

gang ah jee:

I served but in a period of no hostilities. My father was a combat veteran of two wars. Now, I don't want to pop your bubble but I have no qualms about Murtha speaking out (another decorated veteran opposed to our Iraqi policy). Only Murtha has the prudence and decency not to assault the whole nation on foreign soil. That's my bone of contention.

alffy (again!):

If you served your country, that's fine and dandy. And I salute you for it as I would any other veteran. However, you must know that war makes pacifists of many soldiers. I criticized your stance, not your sacrifice (since you hadn't divulged it then).

VanIslander:

Did you bother to read my post all the way through? Judging from your retort, methinks not.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:27 am Post subject:

Quote:

DD:

Always appreciate your quotes from Bartlett's. Good to see you're letting someone else do the thinking for you. Now kindly address the question rather than skirt it.

Not skirting the issue though I thought it should be clear as day what an "American patriot" is. Seems though, I have to spell it out for you, Reader's Digest or Toilet reader version.

Not withstanding Kerry's military record, he is a patriot fo clinging to the truth, stating the truth and demanding answers of authority. America was founded on the principle of questioning authority and is stronger for each and every member that stands up to an injustice. Or do you think that Bush and boys are "just" and that running rimrod over American's civil liberties, sending boys to die for flights of fancy and just spending American's wealth down a gold toilet -- are "right" .

Remember, "truth, justice, the American way". Seems you have forgotten that. I'm with those time honoured men who did what was right in the face of authority; Jefferson, Henry, Bryant, Debs, Bobby Kennedy, King Jr. and might I be so bold to add a few recent names........I'll mention later.

Have you not read your Thomas Paine, or is that not included in your toilet reader? Get to it! Atleast I'll pull out my Bartlett's again and shine the light in your dark room to the hole. It's a brightly fav. of mine...... written in that very bright year of 1776.

""'Tis surprising to see how rapidly a panic will sometimes run through a country, Yet panics, in some cases, have their uses; they produce as much good as hurt. Their duration is always short; the mind soon grows through them, and acquires a firmer habit than before. But their peculiar advantage is, that they are the touchstones of sincerity and hypocrisy, and bring things and men to light, which might otherwise have lain forever undiscovered. In fact, they have the same effect on secret traitors, which an imaginary apparition would have upon a private murderer. They sift out the hidden thoughts of man, and hold them up in public to the world."

DD

ever hopeful despite the inanity.

stevemcgarrett

Joined: 24 Mar 2006

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:32 am Post subject:

ddeubel:

Quote:

running rimrod over American's civil liberties

You mean running roughshod? Rolling Eyes

You do realize we're in a war against terrorism, which requires extreme measures? Or do you think the entire conflict is manufactured too?

From your response, I'd say you're wearing a skirt on the issue instead.

I seriously doubt Thomas Paine would have harangued the American people as a whole as Kerry did or speak foul in that kind of context. You missed the point entirely, as usual.

Really, you should consider changing your avatar. I don't want to begin to think you're a smiling black man either.

Nowhere Man

Joined: 08 Feb 2004

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:39 am Post subject: ...

Quote:

For the record: To me, a patriot is someone who at the end of the day has said many more positive than negative things about his own nation.

Don't take this all out on Stevie. There's at least one other on this board who falls into this line of thinking but just doesn't say it in as many words.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:17 am Post subject:

Quote:

Really, you should consider changing your avatar. I don't want to begin to think you're a smiling black man either.

You know, I love it when people refer to my avatar in such a fashion as the above (and it has been often). Each time, it is a very telling example (in the poker table sense) of their hidden bigotry and racism. They couch it in modern sensibilities but at the end of the day, the black guy is what they are afraid of -- which means, they are afraid of themselves....scared kids and too many of them making policy too......

DD

PS. for the record, I meant rimrod, as in nimrod, as in being able to use language with flair and not the poor fashion of the kid at the back of the class with greasy hair and thoughts of a slurpy from 7/11

gang ah jee

Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:28 am Post subject:

stevemcgarrett wrote:

Really, you should consider changing your avatar. I don't want to begin to think you're a smiling black man either.

Wait. You mean that's not really ddeubel?

Shocked

postfundie

Joined: 28 May 2004

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:29 am Post subject:

Quote:

their hidden bigotry and racism. They couch it in modern sensibilities but at the end of the day, the black guy is what they are afraid of -- which means, they are afraid of themselves....scared kids and too many of them making policy too......

It's so nice that we have you (with your beautiful Doctorate in applied pschology and crystal ball gazing) to pontificate to us who is racist.. Everytime I wonder where the hidden racism is in the world, I can always come here to Dave's to read your posts. But maybe I'm afraid of myself...wait I'll go look in the mirror...I wasn't afraid but I had a neck tie on...maybe I serve the capitalist system..help me dd please....

contrarian

Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:32 am Post subject:

DD said: Have you not read your Thomas Paine, or is that not included in your toilet reader? Get to it! Atleast I'll pull out my Bartlett's again and shine the light in your dark room to the hole. It's a brightly fav. of mine...... written in that very bright year of 1776. I love Tom Paine. His is the ideal of God given rights rather than "natural rights". The one that based the Declaration of Independance upon the Bible.

stevemcgarrett

Joined: 24 Mar 2006

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:55 am Post subject:

ddeubel originally wrote:

Quote:

...running rimrod over American's civil liberties

I then said:

Quote:

You mean running roughsod over...?

His retort:

Quote:

PS. for the record, I meant rimrod, as in nimrod, as in being able to use language with flair

Which means he was really saying "with flair":

"running nimrod over American civil liberties."

Oh, I see, that makes perfect sense now. Thanks for clearing up that syntax thing for me, ddude. Rolling Eyes

So anyone who doesn't spout the party line is a racist? Brilliant ddeductive thinking there, ddeubel.

alffy

Joined: 25 Apr 2006

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:18 am Post subject:

wannago wrote:

Being injured in a military vehicle accident isn't taking shrapnel for your country.

wannago, I beg to differ slightly with you on your declaration, here. I agree with the statement prima facia, but do disagree at your intended general application.

Yes, a combat injury (of the sort Kerry has taken, by the way) is distinct in that it is inflicted by an enemy (or at least combatant) against the state. But that is why we award special medals for such incidents (and, no, I do not have a Purple Heart).

On the other hand, injuries sustained in the military are also distinct from "common vriety" injuries in the civilian world as the military is a distinctly dangerous place to be. Having a Hummer accident in Iraq, Bosnia, Kosovo, or even Fort Benning is doing so while serving your country in an inherently dangerous environment. Moreso, it occurred while the individual involved had pledged to serve in any capacity his/her government may have deemed necessary, and therefore the situation was entirely out of the individual's control. This is why the Veterans' Administration fails to distinguish between ANY types of service related disabilities, combat or non-combat. If you are injurd or become ill, even if serving at a desk in Kansas, while in the service, the VA will take care of you as long as necesary, because that is part of the bond made by your pledge to serve.

And for what its worth, my disabilities were not caused by combat, but rather a much more pervasive dangerous situation in today's service- negligence, ineptitude, and down-right dereliction of duty. I was forced to live in a compartment on a ship for 6 months that everyone knew, including me, was contaminated by hazardous materials, being as the space was directly above the Hazmat locker which was incorrectly vented. The ships' company knew the space was unlivable, so no ships' company personel were assigned to the space and it was used as a general storage area. When the Commodore and his staff came aboard (to which I was attached), the lowest ranking enlisted guys were crammed into the space. Despite our complaints (including from our attached medical staff) we were left there. Four out of thirty guys in there 20s developed cancer within 8 months of being put in that space and several others developed other serious, and in one case "mysterious," illneses. My buddy that developed a nice brain tumor and I even shared a Radiation Oncologist.

So no, getting in a Hummer accident is not the same as being injured during combat. But just being in the military is dangerous, and I respect ANY veteran, particularly ANY verteran sustaining a disability or injury. In my estimation the disabiled veteran has made a sacrifice few others in his/her nation have been willing to make.

And I do believe Kerry has my respect for what he has done for his country. If he choses to voice criticisms of his nation while "on foreign soil," so be it. I do not believe the First Amendment protected the rights of speech of Americans only while standing on US soil.

As to his patriotism, I believe it is more patriotic to voice one's concerns regarding a nation then to support it unquestionably despite those reservations. The discussion of his choise of locations for such commentary may be reasonable (although I have no problem with it), but to question his patriotism based on his locatin while speaking about his concerns is merely juvenile.

So allow me to reiterate, Mr. McGarrett, your behavior here on these boards belies your claims regarding your age and maturity. If you want open and thoughtful debate, as you indicate, your manner of approaching topics, and those that disagree with you, are in clear conflict to your desired outcome.

And I still believe "churlish" is applicable.

bucheon bum

Joined: 16 Jan 2003

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: Re: ...

Nowhere Man wrote:

Quote:

For the record: To me, a patriot is someone who at the end of the day has said many more positive than negative things about his own nation.

Don't take this all out on Stevie. There's at least one other on this board who falls into this line of thinking but just doesn't say it in as many words.

Hmm I wonder who you could be refering to.

Wangja

Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject:

wannago wrote:

gang ah jee wrote:

wannago wrote:

Being injured in a military vehicle accident isn't taking shrapnel for your country.

WTF? Seriously.

So, for example, the 20,600 Americans who died "accidental" deaths in the Korean effort don't count?

gang ah jee

Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject:

Wangja wrote:

wannago wrote:

gang ah jee wrote:

wannago wrote:

Being injured in a military vehicle accident isn't taking shrapnel for your country.

WTF? Seriously.

So, for example, the 20,600 Americans who died "accidental" deaths in the Korean effort don't count?

Yes, and I guess 11,000 of the Americans dead in Vietnam weren't 'taking one for the nation' either, right?

Ya-ta Boy

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject:

Quote:

So no, getting in a Hummer accident is not the same as being injured during combat

I agree with you, but I think I might go even farther. A person injured (or killed) in an accident while serving deserves every bit as much respect as the person injured or killed in combat. I see no legitimate reason to distinguish between combat and non-combat incidents. Troops serving in support roles are every bit as vital as front-line troops, just like the parts of a machine.

About the OP: Unless Kerry was declaring himself a pacifist then there is no problem having different positions on Bosnia and Iraq.

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