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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| Gamecock wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Gay activists say the ban breaches their fundamental human rights. They say they intend to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. |
Not being allowed to have a gay parade breaches fundamental human rights? Are you joking?
I'm all for gay equal rights and gay marriage and the ability for people to be out in the open without persecution or discrimination. I think people should be able to do whatever the hell they want in their private life if it doesn't hurt anyone else. I'm an openminded person and certainly no prude. I have to admit I have only seen one gay parade (San Francisco). I wouldn't call it satanic, but it certainly was vulgar. I can't think of a good reason that kind of blatant sexuality and nudity needs to be expressed on the public streets where children are in the vicinity. |
(1)People who ignored the ban were beaten up, then arrested. (2) I would say that violates basic human rights. (3) Interestingly enough, it wasn't those darn Muslims fault this time~
Peace |
(numbers are mine)
1. They were beaten up by other citizens, not police. And if you participate in an event which is banned, you must expect to get arrested.
2. See above.
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Yeah don't be stupid SU .
(1) How could they possibly be violating human rights by banning people from demanding them, and then when they get beaten up by members of the public, (2) arresting them for ignoring the ban instead of arresting the violent people?  |
(numbers are mine)
1. Nice try at deflecting the issue, but it's not going to work. Their human rights weren't banned, the parade was (on concerns of violence...kind of like in Northern Ireland not that long ago). Not being allowed to have a parade is not a violation of fundamental human rights. Not even in the West.
2. How do you know the people who did the beating weren't arrested as well? In fact if two people are in a fight how are the cops going to know who is gay and who isn't? If two guys are whaling the tar out of each other, the police aren't going to gently tap one of them on the shoulder and say "Excuse me sir, but do you happen to be gay by any chance?"
And if you actually read the article, you would see that the gay activists were divided in their opinion over whether to hold this march. Some warned of a possible backlash (and I would agree with them). As events regrettably showed..they were correct |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Grimalkin wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| Gamecock wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Gay activists say the ban breaches their fundamental human rights. They say they intend to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. |
Not being allowed to have a gay parade breaches fundamental human rights? Are you joking?
I'm all for gay equal rights and gay marriage and the ability for people to be out in the open without persecution or discrimination. I think people should be able to do whatever the hell they want in their private life if it doesn't hurt anyone else. I'm an openminded person and certainly no prude. I have to admit I have only seen one gay parade (San Francisco). I wouldn't call it satanic, but it certainly was vulgar. I can't think of a good reason that kind of blatant sexuality and nudity needs to be expressed on the public streets where children are in the vicinity. |
(1)People who ignored the ban were beaten up, then arrested. (2) I would say that violates basic human rights. (3) Interestingly enough, it wasn't those darn Muslims fault this time~
Peace |
(numbers are mine)
1. They were beaten up by other citizens, not police. And if you participate in an event which is banned, you must expect to get arrested.
2. See above.
|
Yeah don't be stupid SU .
(1) How could they possibly be violating human rights by banning people from demanding them, and then when they get beaten up by members of the public, (2) arresting them for ignoring the ban instead of arresting the violent people? |
(numbers are mine)
1. Nice try at deflecting the issue, but it's not going to work. Their human rights weren't banned, the parade was (on concerns of violence...kind of like in Northern Ireland not that long ago). Not being allowed to have a parade is not a violation of fundamental human rights. Not even in the West.
2. How do you know the people who did the beating weren't arrested as well? In fact if two people are in a fight how are the cops going to know who is gay and who isn't? If two guys are whaling the tar out of each other, the police aren't going to gently tap one of them on the shoulder and say "Excuse me sir, but do you happen to be gay by any chance?"
And if you actually read the article, you would see that the gay activists were divided in their opinion over whether to hold this march. Some warned of a possible backlash (and I would agree with them). As events regrettably showed..they were correct |
1. The parade was banned because the participants were gay. The people participating were the cause of the parade being banned. The mayor was not initially concerned with violence. He was concerned with making a moral point that homosexuality is satanic - his words, not mine.
2. Because the article says the parade participants were arrested after they were beaten. In other words, the beaten people were arrested. Do you really think the police were that innocent in the matter? Get real.
Human rights have only changed for the better by people who are willing to participate in civil disobedience. The backlash will actually be good in the long run for gay people in Russia.
Peace |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Grimalkin posted:
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It�s unlawful in the state of California for either sex to fake ones orgrasm. Appearantly a group of disgruntled husbands got together to get this law passed after being fed up with their wives faking the screams and moans.
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I would be interested in seeing a source for this, other than the "idiotlaws" website. |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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All of the above in seoulunitarian's post and....
...and on what planet were the parades in N. Ireland banned, because it didn't happen in N. Ireland, planet earth.
In 1996 an attempt to ban the loyalist parade from entering the nationalist area was unsuccesful due to loyalist protest.
From 1998 they have been banned successfully from entering the nationalist area.
In other words the parades were re-routed.....but they have always taken place! |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Grimalkin posted:
| Quote: |
It�s unlawful in the state of California for either sex to fake ones orgrasm. Appearantly a group of disgruntled husbands got together to get this law passed after being fed up with their wives faking the screams and moans.
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I would be interested in seeing a source for this, other than the "idiotlaws" website. |
Happy hunting! |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:48 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Grimalkin wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| Gamecock wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Gay activists say the ban breaches their fundamental human rights. They say they intend to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. |
Not being allowed to have a gay parade breaches fundamental human rights? Are you joking?
I'm all for gay equal rights and gay marriage and the ability for people to be out in the open without persecution or discrimination. I think people should be able to do whatever the hell they want in their private life if it doesn't hurt anyone else. I'm an openminded person and certainly no prude. I have to admit I have only seen one gay parade (San Francisco). I wouldn't call it satanic, but it certainly was vulgar. I can't think of a good reason that kind of blatant sexuality and nudity needs to be expressed on the public streets where children are in the vicinity. |
(1)People who ignored the ban were beaten up, then arrested. (2) I would say that violates basic human rights. (3) Interestingly enough, it wasn't those darn Muslims fault this time~
Peace |
(numbers are mine)
1. They were beaten up by other citizens, not police. And if you participate in an event which is banned, you must expect to get arrested.
2. See above.
|
Yeah don't be stupid SU .
(1) How could they possibly be violating human rights by banning people from demanding them, and then when they get beaten up by members of the public, (2) arresting them for ignoring the ban instead of arresting the violent people? |
(numbers are mine)
1. Nice try at deflecting the issue, but it's not going to work. Their human rights weren't banned, the parade was (on concerns of violence...kind of like in Northern Ireland not that long ago). Not being allowed to have a parade is not a violation of fundamental human rights. Not even in the West.
2. How do you know the people who did the beating weren't arrested as well? In fact if two people are in a fight how are the cops going to know who is gay and who isn't? If two guys are whaling the tar out of each other, the police aren't going to gently tap one of them on the shoulder and say "Excuse me sir, but do you happen to be gay by any chance?"
And if you actually read the article, you would see that the gay activists were divided in their opinion over whether to hold this march. Some warned of a possible backlash (and I would agree with them). As events regrettably showed..they were correct |
1. The parade was banned because the participants were gay. The people participating were the cause of the parade being banned. The mayor was not initially concerned with violence. He was concerned with making a moral point that homosexuality is satanic - his words, not mine.
2. Because the article says the parade participants were arrested after they were beaten. In other words, the beaten people were arrested. Do you really think the police were that innocent in the matter? Get real.
(3) Human rights have only changed for the better by people who are willing to participate in civil disobedience. The backlash will actually be good in the long run for gay people in Russia.
Peace |
(1) Again I point out that holding a parade regardless of sexual orientation is not a fundamental human right.
2. I didn't ask that. I asked how do you know that the people who did the beating were not also arrested? If the police see groups of people fighting in the streets, I highly doubt they are going to ask their sexual orientation before hauling them off to jail.
(3) If it were peaceful protest I would agree with you. But this parade was done in the full knowledge that it would incite violence. Even a number of gay activists were against holding this parade and as I said above events proved them right. If you beat your head against a brick wall...it might fall down, then again you might only knock your brains out.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:51 am Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
From 1998 they have been banned successfully from entering the nationalist area.
In other words the parades were re-routed.....but they have always taken place! |
Should have put "from entering the nationalist area". You are correct sir. But I would posit that if they were banned from entering the nationalist area, then the nationalists achieved pretty much their objectives. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Grimalkin wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| Gamecock wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Gay activists say the ban breaches their fundamental human rights. They say they intend to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. |
Not being allowed to have a gay parade breaches fundamental human rights? Are you joking?
I'm all for gay equal rights and gay marriage and the ability for people to be out in the open without persecution or discrimination. I think people should be able to do whatever the hell they want in their private life if it doesn't hurt anyone else. I'm an openminded person and certainly no prude. I have to admit I have only seen one gay parade (San Francisco). I wouldn't call it satanic, but it certainly was vulgar. I can't think of a good reason that kind of blatant sexuality and nudity needs to be expressed on the public streets where children are in the vicinity. |
(1)People who ignored the ban were beaten up, then arrested. (2) I would say that violates basic human rights. (3) Interestingly enough, it wasn't those darn Muslims fault this time~
Peace |
(numbers are mine)
1. They were beaten up by other citizens, not police. And if you participate in an event which is banned, you must expect to get arrested.
2. See above.
|
Yeah don't be stupid SU .
(1) How could they possibly be violating human rights by banning people from demanding them, and then when they get beaten up by members of the public, (2) arresting them for ignoring the ban instead of arresting the violent people? |
(numbers are mine)
1. Nice try at deflecting the issue, but it's not going to work. Their human rights weren't banned, the parade was (on concerns of violence...kind of like in Northern Ireland not that long ago). Not being allowed to have a parade is not a violation of fundamental human rights. Not even in the West.
2. How do you know the people who did the beating weren't arrested as well? In fact if two people are in a fight how are the cops going to know who is gay and who isn't? If two guys are whaling the tar out of each other, the police aren't going to gently tap one of them on the shoulder and say "Excuse me sir, but do you happen to be gay by any chance?"
And if you actually read the article, you would see that the gay activists were divided in their opinion over whether to hold this march. Some warned of a possible backlash (and I would agree with them). As events regrettably showed..they were correct |
1. The parade was banned because the participants were gay. The people participating were the cause of the parade being banned. The mayor was not initially concerned with violence. He was concerned with making a moral point that homosexuality is satanic - his words, not mine.
2. Because the article says the parade participants were arrested after they were beaten. In other words, the beaten people were arrested. Do you really think the police were that innocent in the matter? Get real.
(3) Human rights have only changed for the better by people who are willing to participate in civil disobedience. The backlash will actually be good in the long run for gay people in Russia.
Peace |
(1) Again I point out that holding a parade regardless of sexual orientation is not a fundamental human right.
2. I didn't ask that. I asked how do you know that the people who did the beating were not also arrested? If the police see groups of people fighting in the streets, I highly doubt they are going to ask their sexual orientation before hauling them off to jail.
(3) If it were peaceful protest I would agree with you. But this parade was done in the full knowledge that it would incite violence. Even a number of gay activists were against holding this parade and as I said above events proved them right. If you beat your head against a brick wall...it might fall down, then again you might only knock your brains out. |
Beating my head against a brick wall is the percect analogy for participating in this conversation.
Peace |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
(so, banning the parade because they are gay was wrong)
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
(not protecting them from protestors was wrong)
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
(once again, banning the parade because they are gay was wrong)
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
(the right to manifest: a parade is a manifestation, isn't it?)
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
(a parade could be considered a medium)
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(assembly, like assembling for a parade?)
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(gay parades are cultural and artistic.)
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
(if you want to play the 'gay's are immoral' card like the mayor of Moscow, well....their right to display their 'morality' is a basic human right) |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
(so, banning the parade because they are gay was wrong)
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
(not protecting them from protestors was wrong)
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
(once again, banning the parade because they are gay was wrong)
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
(the right to manifest: a parade is a manifestation, isn't it?)
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
(a parade could be considered a medium)
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(assembly, like assembling for a parade?)
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(gay parades are cultural and artistic.)
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
(if you want to play the 'gay's are immoral' card like the mayor of Moscow, well....their right to display their 'morality' is a basic human right) |
Russia didn't sign the declaration in 1948. That was the SOVIET UNION which was a different political entity. After the break-up of the U.S.S.R Russia became a separate and distinct entity.
Nice try though. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
(so, banning the parade because they are gay was wrong)
Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
(not protecting them from protestors was wrong)
Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.
(once again, banning the parade because they are gay was wrong)
Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
(the right to manifest: a parade is a manifestation, isn't it?)
Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
(a parade could be considered a medium)
Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(assembly, like assembling for a parade?)
Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.
(gay parades are cultural and artistic.)
(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.
(if you want to play the 'gay's are immoral' card like the mayor of Moscow, well....their right to display their 'morality' is a basic human right) |
Everyone....................
but gays |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: re: |
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Is the question really "does Moscow have the right to ban such a parade?" or "should Moscow have the right to ban such a parade?" Of course, the mayor does have that right, but he should not have that right.
Peace |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Is the question really "does Moscow have the right to ban such a parade?" or "should Moscow have the right to ban such a parade?" Of course, the mayor does have that right, but he should not have that right.
Peace |
SU is right. None of us are experts in Russia law. We are not going to debate if the state can do this legally, but I am willing to take a stand and say that 1) they (Russian gov) should not have the power to do so and 2) even though they might, they should not have done it.
I believe we have certain rights, among these, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
And just to put it out there, homosexuality is a historically normal behavior that has existed and exists among all human societies at all times. What consenting adults choose to do sexually, and who they chose to love, should not be of concern to anybody but those directly involved. In other words, if you think the GPP is 'gross', then don't go. I won't. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Is the question really "does Moscow have the right to ban such a parade?" or "should Moscow have the right to ban such a parade?" Of course, the mayor does have that right, but he should not have that right.
Peace |
SU is right. None of us are experts in Russia law. We are not going to debate if the state can do this legally, but I am willing to take a stand and say that 1) they (Russian gov) should not have the power to do so and 2) even though they might, they should not have done it.
I believe we have certain rights, among these, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
And just to put it out there, homosexuality is a historically normal behavior that has existed and exists among all human societies at all times. What consenting adults choose to do sexually, and who they chose to love, should not be of concern to anybody but those directly involved. In other words, if you think the GPP is 'gross', then don't go. I won't. |
No one is banning homosexuality. Just parades which end up being nothing but an excuse for a bunch of people to expose their genitals, their sex practices and pretty much everything else to the public. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want to see a bunch of sailors parading down some street grinding with each other, so I won't go. But I will not assert onto them my preference for not wanting to see it. They have the choice to do it, and I have the choice to not watch.
Ain't freedom grand? |
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