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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Is the question really "does Moscow have the right to ban such a parade?" or "should Moscow have the right to ban such a parade?" Of course, the mayor does have that right, but he should not have that right.
Peace |
SU is right. None of us are experts in Russia law. We are not going to debate if the state can do this legally, but I am willing to take a stand and say that 1) they (Russian gov) should not have the power to do so and 2) even though they might, they should not have done it.
I believe we have certain rights, among these, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
And just to put it out there, homosexuality is a historically normal behavior that has existed and exists among all human societies at all times. What consenting adults choose to do sexually, and who they chose to love, should not be of concern to anybody but those directly involved. In other words, if you think the GPP is 'gross', then don't go. I won't. |
No one is banning homosexuality. Just parades which end up being nothing but an excuse for a bunch of people to expose their genitals, their sex practices and pretty much everything else to the public. |
Oh, for heaven's sake! I guess some people just have a problem walking a mile in another person's shoes, especially if the shoes are Gucci.
Peace |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| If these parades didnt end up being dominated by a bunch of degenerates nobody would mind. I dont buy this crap about freedom. No society is totally free. There are standards that each society has. And in this case I simply dont buy the argument that allowing a bunch of (semi)naked degenerates to simulate (and in many cases its not even simulation) anal sex or anilingus in public as some kind of measure of a society's progressiveness. Nobody is banning homosexuality. You can have your little bars and you can have your bathhouses where you transmit all sorts of crap between each other. Keep it private, if you are going to debase yourself, dive in the moral gutter then do it, but keep the rest of society out of it. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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If you don't want to see it, don't go. You have zero moral authority to tell to them what is clean, moral or appropriate behaviour. If they try to physically coerce you into watching, then we have an issue. But they just want to have a party, and that is none of our business.
Do you not see a glimmer of totalitarianism in your words "they can have their little bars."? It is not up to "us" what "they" can "have". As long as they don't cause you direct harm, myob. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
If you don't want to see it, don't go. You have zero moral authority to tell to them what is clean, moral or appropriate behaviour. If they try to physically coerce you into watching, then we have an issue. But they just want to have a party, and that is none of our business.
Do you not see a glimmer of totalitarianism in your words "they can have their little bars."? It is not up to "us" what "they" can "have". As long as they don't cause you direct harm, myob. |
So lets let the zoophilics have their parades too.
The fact is that you can talk all you want about "moral authority" in the end its the legal authority that counts and Mosow has that authority to ban this sort of degenerate garbage. And good for them that they did. The problem with modern society is that we are too lenient towrds these degenerates allwing them to spew their disease all over us as a whole. I say no. Moscow does too. Who are you to stand up to moscow and me? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not standing up to anybody. This is dave's eslcafe, and what is said here matters as much as you at your "job". But on the bigger picture, which is that SU and I are past the discussion of if the Russians can or can not legally stop the parade. The Economist is saying it might be time to refer to Putin's Russia as "fascist", therefore, we can assume that what is or isn't legal is nothing more than what Putin thinks is good or bad.
But, modern, civilized societies don't extend to the government such arbitray power. Gays are as human as you or I, and are accorded the same inherent liberty as you or I. That is the final answer. They may gather together provided they do not directly harm another. Being grossed out isn't harm. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
I'm not standing up to anybody. This is dave's eslcafe, and what is said here matters as much as you at your "job". But on the bigger picture, which is that SU and I are past the discussion of if the Russians can or can not legally stop the parade. The Economist is saying it might be time to refer to Putin's Russia as "fascist", therefore, we can assume that what is or isn't legal is nothing more than what Putin thinks is good or bad.
But, modern, civilized societies don't extend to the government such arbitray power. Gays are as human as you or I, and are accorded the same inherent liberty as you or I. That is the final answer. They may gather together provided they do not directly harm another. Being grossed out isn't harm. |
Based on that, I should be able to go in and amongst them calling them every nasty anti-homosexual name in the book and even those that aren't. If they want to have a "party" or "gather together" in a public place, then I should be able to go there as well and say whatever I please, even if it offends the gays. Being offended isn't harm. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| Based on that, I should be able to go in and amongst them calling them every nasty anti-homosexual name in the book and even those that aren't. If they want to have a "party" or "gather together" in a public place, then I should be able to go there as well and say whatever I please, even if it offends the gays. Being offended isn't harm. |
Has anyone been saying otherwise? Careful not to get reverse gay bashed though!
Heh, which reminds me. When I was 18 I was flatting on the street in my city that was a cruising ground for transvestite street walkers. Every so often some drunk rednecks would show up and think that it would be fun to harrass the 'girls' - forgetting that a 120kg samoan man in a dress and make-up is still a 120kg samoan man. Plus, of course, the girls all looked out for each other, and were not at all averse to putting the boot in with their size 11 stilletto heels. Beatings administered by the ladymen woke me up several times while I lived on that street.
So yeah, wannago, have fun, but be careful.
Last edited by gang ah jee on Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
I'm not standing up to anybody. This is dave's eslcafe, and what is said here matters as much as you at your "job". But on the bigger picture, which is that SU and I are past the discussion of if the Russians can or can not legally stop the parade. The Economist is saying it might be time to refer to Putin's Russia as "fascist", therefore, we can assume that what is or isn't legal is nothing more than what Putin thinks is good or bad.
But, modern, civilized societies don't extend to the government such arbitray power. Gays are as human as you or I, and are accorded the same inherent liberty as you or I. That is the final answer. They may gather together provided they do not directly harm another. Being grossed out isn't harm. |
Based on that, I should be able to go in and amongst them calling them every nasty anti-homosexual name in the book and even those that aren't. If they want to have a "party" or "gather together" in a public place, then I should be able to go there as well and say whatever I please, even if it offends the gays. Being offended isn't harm. |
Yes, you should. Free speech. In addition, I will be able to go and protest the closeted gay-bashers who have nothing better to do with their lives than harass adults for their sexuality. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| wannago wrote: |
| Based on that, I should be able to go in and amongst them calling them every nasty anti-homosexual name in the book and even those that aren't. If they want to have a "party" or "gather together" in a public place, then I should be able to go there as well and say whatever I please, even if it offends the gays. Being offended isn't harm. |
Has anyone been saying otherwise? Careful not to get reverse gay bashed though!
Heh, which reminds me. When I was 18 I was flatting on the street in my city that was a cruising ground for transvestite street walkers. Every so often some drunk rednecks would show up and think that it would be fun to harrass the 'girls' - forgetting that a 120kg samoan man in a dress and make-up is still a 120kg samoan man. Plus, of course, the girls all looked out for each other, and were not at all averse to putting the boot in with their size 11 stilletto heels. Beatings administered by the ladymen woke me up several times while I lived on that street.
So yeah, wannago, have fun, but be careful. |
Well, thanks, but I wasn't necessarily saying I would do this. I really have nothing against gay people but I have no respect for those who want to display their sexuality in such a vulgar fashion...straight or gay. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:29 am Post subject: re: |
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| wannago wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
I'm not standing up to anybody. This is dave's eslcafe, and what is said here matters as much as you at your "job". But on the bigger picture, which is that SU and I are past the discussion of if the Russians can or can not legally stop the parade. The Economist is saying it might be time to refer to Putin's Russia as "fascist", therefore, we can assume that what is or isn't legal is nothing more than what Putin thinks is good or bad.
But, modern, civilized societies don't extend to the government such arbitray power. Gays are as human as you or I, and are accorded the same inherent liberty as you or I. That is the final answer. They may gather together provided they do not directly harm another. Being grossed out isn't harm. |
Based on that, I should be able to go in and amongst them calling them every nasty anti-homosexual name in the book and even those that aren't. If they want to have a "party" or "gather together" in a public place, then I should be able to go there as well and say whatever I please, even if it offends the gays. Being offended isn't harm. |
A party ain't a party until there's some name-calling. Nobody here is saying the homophobes don't have free speech -come one, come all, I say.
Peace |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:33 am Post subject: re: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| If these parades didnt end up being dominated by a bunch of degenerates nobody would mind. I dont buy this crap about freedom. No society is totally free. There are standards that each society has. And in this case I simply dont buy the argument that allowing a bunch of (semi)naked degenerates to simulate (and in many cases its not even simulation) anal sex or anilingus in public as some kind of measure of a society's progressiveness. Nobody is banning homosexuality. You can have your little bars and you can have your bathhouses where you transmit all sorts of crap between each other. Keep it private, if you are going to debase yourself, dive in the moral gutter then do it, but keep the rest of society out of it. |
All I have to say is Primetime TV - you want to see degeneracy (of the hetero type), tune in there between 8 and 10 Central and you'll get your quota. It ain't just the gays that have a corner on degeneracy. Have you ever (or ever dreamed of ) butt-*beep**ing a woman? Heteros have anal sex too, you know. The only reason they feel no need to do it public is because they've been free to do it throughout history.
Peace |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:36 am Post subject: |
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SU, I would assume that you would agree with me that the goal for our society ought to be normalization of homosexuality. We often see people, as Wannago (not to pick on him) just did, say "I have nothing against gay people", as if they are a different kind of people. This division, an us vs. them thing, is the essence of the gay-rights problem. Now, in my opinion, the GPP does not normalize gay behavior but rather does the opposite. The parade takes a certain segment of the homosexual population and displays their excesses for all to see.
As the GPP is the only real point of contact that much of the straight population has with gay culture, I think that this doesn't help your case. The GPP actually furthers the divide between the homo and heterosexual populations. They way in which the sexuality is displayed may make worse the situation for homosexuals as a whole.
Do you agree? |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: re: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
SU, I would assume that you would agree with me that the goal for our society ought to be normalization of homosexuality. We often see people, as Wannago (not to pick on him) just did, say "I have nothing against gay people", as if they are a different kind of people. This division, an us vs. them thing, is the essence of the gay-rights problem. Now, in my opinion, the GPP does not normalize gay behavior but rather does the opposite. The parade takes a certain segment of the homosexual population and displays their excesses for all to see.
As the GPP is the only real point of contact that much of the straight population has with gay culture, I think that this doesn't help your case. The GPP actually furthers the divide between the homo and heterosexual populations. They way in which the sexuality is displayed may make worse the situation for homosexuals as a whole.
Do you agree? |
I agree with you in theory. If you've ever been to a gay pride parade, you will see excess and you will see dignity, often side by side. In my hometown, some local church members would even march with the gay participants, even though some of them were not gay themselves.
The main reason I think most of the obscene marchers do what they do is to make a "f*ck you" statement because they're sick and tired of playing nice. This doesn't make it right nor does it further the cause. But I think the parade in general can further the cause, depending on the nature and dignity of the participants.
Also, I suppose everyone has a different view of what is and is not obscene. I mean, most straight guys would love to see two girls getting it on in public, but when the guys start going at it, the gag factor kicks in. Some may think my avatar is obscene. I think it makes the statement that (1) spirituality can be fun, and (2) Jesus probably does not take himself as seriously as most of his followers. There is always an element of subjectivity in such conversations.
Peace |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| SU, I would assume that you would agree with me that the goal for our society ought to be normalization of homosexuality. |
Okay just shoot...shoot me now.  |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:17 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Is the question really "does Moscow have the right to ban such a parade?" or "should Moscow have the right to ban such a parade?" Of course, the mayor does have that right, but he should not have that right.
Peace |
SU is right. None of us are experts in Russia law. We are not going to debate if the state can do this legally, but I am willing to take a stand and say that 1) they (Russian gov) should not have the power to do so and 2) even though they might, they should not have done it.
I believe we have certain rights, among these, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
And just to put it out there, homosexuality is a historically normal behavior that has existed and exists among all human societies at all times. What consenting adults choose to do sexually, and who they chose to love, should not be of concern to anybody but those directly involved. In other words, if you think the GPP is 'gross', then don't go. I won't. |
Well, I know this about Russia...Putin is 'wh0re' in French. The French newspapers were more than happy to put his name in big bold letters in their headlines when he went to visit Chirac in 2003. "Putin!" |
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