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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| umm yeah. talk about a bleak forecast. thank goodness a lot of the world doesn't give a rat's ass about that region. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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DD
All out war is inevitable. For the uninitiated it as called Armageddon, the Apocalypse, and has been prophesied since old testament times.
Besides God have the land of Canaan to Abraham, the Isaac and the Jacob, called Israel.
There is no secular solutions |
I guess I better sign up for Costco. Got to find me some Kool Aid.
DD |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Hey there boy, just step into Costco and fetchit. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
Israel can afford a disproprtionate response and the would not have had to occupy Lebanon. Simply a Blitzkrieg to the Bekkaa valley and South Bieruth, then back to Israel leaving a scorched earth behind.
As with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan there would be no more terrorist holy warriors the price to pay would be too horrible to contemplate. In an exaggerated sense it would be: "Kill them all and let God sort them out." |
 Anyone else here's eyes not just pop out at this post? Seriously, this contrarian dude must have learned his history from video games. Plus, apart from the side he's on I honestly can't see any real difference between his position and that of al Qaeda-lovin' jihadis.
Ugh. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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It is a them or us situation, and I include Israel in "us", get them before they get us. Their alternative is to renounce completely the idiotic rhetoric and hope of driving the Jews into the sea.
With Islam it is a clash oc civilizations. With China it will be the next clash. The west should not simply say oh well we might lose our top dog status and do what is necessary to hand onto it. Gotta love Huntington
You also missed the caveat on this. In an exaggerated sense it would be: "Kill them all and let God sort them out."
The exaggerated sense, is that it is not necessary.
The most practical example I can think od is WWII. Japan is getting very expansionist. America embargos things like oil and scrap steel. The Japs get their nickers in a knot and bomb Pearl Harbor. (Killing about the same number as were killed in the WTC.)
Admiral Yamamoto's message to the Imperial general staff was: "I fear we have aroused the sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."
He was right 3.5 years later Hiroshima and Nagasaki paid the price but not before nearly every other Japanese city had been fire-bombed. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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such an optimist, gotta love it.
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I guess I better sign up for Costco. Got to find me some Kool Aid.
DD |
ain't that the truth. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
adventurer:
I am a Jew because my mother and her mother were Jews, long lapsed Jews. I even have an Israeli passport. I know the History. I know the Bible or but not in Hebrew. tetty well. If you look at the maps even in the days of David and Soloman Phillistia was not part of the Israelit kingdoms.
[Well, you then do know tht the history was quite complicated and defining Erez Yisroel is also complicated. Phillistia was not part of the Israelite kingdom initially and people still debate whether Gaza was part of it. The borders changed quite a lot reaching into areas of modern Syria.
My recipe for going in hard against Hezbollah is to take them out of the border regions, South Beiruth, and the Bekaah valley and to leave them in such a weakend condition that the rest of the Lebanese can fill the vacuum [/b]and confront Syria.
[I can understand what you are saying but that would simply put more people into the camp of being pro-Hezbollah and marginalize the moderates in Lebanon and encourage an exodus of Sunni and Christian intellectuals, moderates etc... and leave the country with the Shiites.
Confronting Syria has its risks.
My reference to tha Sampson Option did not include turning Lebanon into a glass parking lot. It is the option that Israel would use before the would accept defeat. It would include the entire middle east. Sampson after he was deceived by Delilah lost his strength and was blinded. They chained him between two pillars int eh temple of Baal to make sport of him. His hair had grown back and his strength returned he pulled the pillars down, the temple collapsed and thousands of Philistines died.
[Yes, I am familiar with the Sampson option. However, when dealing with Hezbollah there is no need to discuss it.
The nuclear Sampson option is that if Israel goes down the entire middle east goes with it. The glass parking lot. It is related to the two statements from the Holocaust.
Never again will we go quietly into the night, and Massada shall not fall again.
[I am familiar with the never again words and the holocaust. However, as one Israeli intellectual recently said projecting the holocaust onto modern times is not necessarily helpful. Massada was a fight against the Roman Empire who backed the Edomites the cousins of the Hebrews and involved a rebellion against the empire which does not really relate to the modern conflict.
The mistake nearly everyone except the Christian right in the US, the religious Jews and the Fundamentalist Muslims make is to think that there is a secular solution to what is essentially a religious issue. |
[A religious issue? That simplifies the conflict way too much. Religion can be manipulated in many ways and interpreted in many ways. The Jewish religion was approached in a different way to relate to the Zionist movement, and you know that. I frankly there can be a combination of a secular and religious solution. You only give the A or B approach. I believe in both. You can't leave religion out of it and nor leave out secular worldly considerations for both sides. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
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| I think Hezbollah is basically panicing. They want the government to call elections as soon as possible, so they can get some kind of political victory before things go in the other direction i.e. in the government's favour. The blogs you are reading based on what you said are probably those that are pro-March 8th (Hezbollah and Michel Aoun). I obviously support the Lebanese of the March 14th group representing the prime minister, Rafiq Al Hariri's son Saad Hariri, Druze leader Walid Jumblatt and Christian leader Samir Geagea. |
Adventurer, I can agree with this. And also your statement that Lebanon is complex and multi layered and it depends who you ask and where you are coming from (regardings "truth").
But I don't cling to Nasrallah and especially Aoun who I view as a snake. I cling to the hope that Lebanon will resolve its problems internally despite the Israeli made crisis. I don't read any particular blogs, of any particular ilk. I read them to get a view of the "man on the street", though I realize the internet street isn't exactly ideal.
About Saladdin. I would also agree the comparison is not exact. Wasn't meant as such but rather to highlight the similarities of a man gaining stature in the religious community by defending against invaders, be they in Cairo, Jerusalem, Baghdad or s. Lebanon. I would also not write Nasrallah off as a "religious kook" though I do see his tendency to use religion as a tool, repugnant. He is a born and raised "pragmatist" and his own cruelty is based on his experiences - first that of Sadaam throwing him out of Baghdad and the killings there and the Israeli's assassination policies which made him to attack like a vicious dog against Israel to show it would be tit for tat....(and it worked) . But it is all just sick, on all parts. War breeds war, cruelty, more cruelty....and in Lebanon this is even more the case.
DD |
Ddeubel, you and I do not agree that the battle of the hill of Geddon or Arma (Hill) Giddon or Tel Megiddo depending on your linguistic preference and the talk of the end of the world presupposes that a war in the Middle East would end the world. It is a large world out there and prophecies can be interpreted in many ways. The problems in the region are very simple in some ways. Here is the simple part. The majority of Jews did not want to go to Yisrael. That was forced on the people by closed doors in the U.S. and Canada. The anti-Semitic prime minister of Canada and president of the U.S. did not want the Jews. The Zionist forces wanted the Jews to go to Palestine. They had to go somewhere. It naturally put the Jews, then, in conflict with their Semitic relatives. It was a European created problem despite the various sins committed by the state of Israel
in its various wars and conflicts.
I think that Israel did not quite create the problem right now. Nasrallah has a choice. Israel is not telling him to try to overthrow the current government. You are probably saying that Israel's large scale attack put Fouad Seniora's government in Lebanon in a delicate position. You may be right, but, again, it also compelled the Lebanese army to find itself in the South for the first time and the Lebanese need to form a unified, democratic government. There were going to be heated arguments of this nature regardless of what Israel did. However, Israel's invasion was ill-conceived, was overkill, rather than measured and led to the needless death of so many Israelis and hundreds of Lebanese civilians. That was horrible. The Israeli public agrees.
Frankly, I am not pessimistic when it comes to the situation. Hezbollah is extremely popular. It felt emoldened by its "victory" and its reaction has pushed so many Sunnis into the camp of the Sunni prime minister, so they are losing ground. It is easy to assume a certain situation is bad. We don't know yet. It all depends on how it is all played and the most important players are the Lebanese people themselves who shouldn't be bombed into oblivion. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
A religious issue? That simplifies the conflict way too much. Religion can be manipulated in many ways and interpreted in many ways. The Jewish religion was approached in a different way to relate to the Zionist movement, and you know that. I frankly there can be a combination of a secular and religious solution. You only give the A or B approach. I believe in both. You can't leave religion out of it and nor leave out secular worldly considerations for both sides. |
I admire you for putting in the effort to say that. |
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