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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| pdx wrote: |
you know, as a Christian, i think it's pretty ridiculous what they feed these kids in terms of propaganda.
but, I do have to say that at least they aren't asking them to strap on bombs and blow them off in marketplaces, or board jetliners and make them crash into skyscrapers.
you know. |
The camp leader says, and I quote, "I want our kids to be willing to lay down their lives for the gospel just like the kids in the Middle East." (11:08 - 11:24)
Peace |
She shouldn't have related Christian martyr's to Islam martyr's without giving an explanation. Oh yeah... she did. So why didn't you include it?
She was trying to relate the willingness of Islam extremists and their desire to die for their goals to what Christian desires should be. She wasn't condoning the action of Islam extremists and how they strap bombs on to kill others, but rather exemplifying their their willingness to die for their ideology. Whereas Christians should follow the nature of Christ and die to our own pursuits and live to the example of Christ. Not to kill others, but to lay down our lives if others want to take them. Quite the opposite, wouldn't you agree?
Our war is not with flesh and blood, but with spiritual weapons....prayer. Look at the lives of all the disciples and see how they all died. They all died by the Romans and the empire by being hung, boiled or eaten alive.
http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html |
You are quite creative (read "dishonest with self") when it comes to dealing with language.
Peace |
Dishonest? What part of this don't you get?
http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html
Christ said that those who want to follow me, needs to deny themselves and pick up their crosses and die daily. This lady and Lou Engle preach the same gospel.
Maybe, you don't agree with this message, but why do you continue to try to misrepresent it? Maybe you should do some soul searching, eh?  |
The leader of the camp said that she hopes her kids would lay down their lives for the gospel just as some Muslim kids do in the Middle East. I really do not know how it can get any plainer than that. You can say she was speaking metaphorically until you're blue in the face (and maybe she was), but how many 7-9 year olds do you know who are good at understanding metaphors? I remember learning about the "seed parable" in Sunday School around that age, and I recall thinking, "What the f*ck?" Kids cannot understand war-like metaphors, particularly when they are reinforcing the metaphor by dressing in military fatigues, painting theur faces with war paint, and brandishing swords.
Peace |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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The difference is the leader.
Look at Islam's leader and what he went onto accomplish and then look at Christianity's leader and what he went onto accomplish.
Radically different.
Christianity is all about the crucible of the paradox. A paradox in which a deeper revelation of God's mercy and love is always meant to be. Where 9 year olds can hear a message and gain one level of understanding from it, compared to an adults understanding. What do you see the kids doing in the film? Praying, bowling, evangelising, preaching, and laughing. Not exactly your gang bang type of kids.
Christ preached to turn the other cheek and love your enemies. Which, I don't see that in the following scriptures or movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b2QhQQpHck
What group of kids would you like to meet in a back alley?
| Quote: |
Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6
Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10
A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24
Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90
"Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81
If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96
For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104
For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114
"And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119
Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126
The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162
Allah is severe punishment! 2:165-6
They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167
Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174
How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175
"Fight in the way of Allah." 2:190, 2:244
Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
"Guard us from the doom of Fire." 2:201
Those who fail in their duty to Allah are proud and sinful. They will all go to hell. 2:206
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 2:217
Those who marry unbelievers will burn in the Fire. 2:221
Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257
"Those who swallow usury ... are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:275 |
Wake up SU. Your hatred for Christianity is blinding you from the injustice that is happening all around us. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:16 am Post subject: re: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
The difference is the leader.
Look at Islam's leader and what he went onto accomplish and then look at Christianity's leader and what he went onto accomplish.
Radically different.
Christianity is all about the crucible of the paradox. A paradox in which a deeper revelation of God's mercy and love is always meant to be. Where 9 year olds can hear a message and gain one level of understanding from it, compared to an adults understanding. What do you see the kids doing in the film? Praying, bowling, evangelising, preaching, and laughing. Not exactly your gang bang type of kids.
Christ preached to turn the other cheek and love your enemies. Which, I don't see that in the following scriptures or movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b2QhQQpHck
What group of kids would you like to meet in a back alley?
| Quote: |
Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6
Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10
A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24
Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90
"Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81
If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96
For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104
For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114
"And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119
Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126
The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162
Allah is severe punishment! 2:165-6
They will not emerge from the Fire. 2:167
Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174
How constant are they in their strife to reach the Fire! 2:175
"Fight in the way of Allah." 2:190, 2:244
Believers must retaliate. Those who transgress will have a painful doom. 2:178
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
"Guard us from the doom of Fire." 2:201
Those who fail in their duty to Allah are proud and sinful. They will all go to hell. 2:206
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
Those who die in their disbelief will burn forever in the Fire. 2:217
Those who marry unbelievers will burn in the Fire. 2:221
Disbelievers worship false gods. The will burn forever in the Fire. 2:257
"Those who swallow usury ... are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:275 |
Wake up SU. Your hatred for Christianity is blinding you from the injustice that is happening all around us. |
Now, what gives you the right to post passages from the Quran without first responding to the jihadist passages from the Bible I posted on your thread? What do I see the kids doing in the film? I see them being traumatized emotionally to the point at which they will be unable to lead healthy adult lives and will probably have to spend years in therapy. Did you listen to that little girl's story of what she wants to do with her life? She wants to open a nail parlor so she can proselytize her customers. I'm guessing that business won't be too successful. And the language these kids are using is like alien-speak to regular people. All this talk about spiritual warfare, overcoming barriers, dieing for Jesus, etc. is just plain spooky.
I do not hate Christianity. I hate fundamentalism, even of the Muslim type. I am not sure how you can sit in front of your computer and assume I am blind to injustice. Actually, if you take a look at my website, you will see that I donate 10% of everything I make to charities. My religion makes me more sensitive to injustice and attempting to eradicate it rather than sending me on a witch hunt to "pull beams out of other people's eyes."
Peace |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:40 am Post subject: |
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seoulunitarian
"Now, what gives you the right to post passages from the Quran without first responding to the jihadist passages from the Bible I posted on your thread?
How arrogant can you get? Telling people what they can post. What a crock of cr@p.
From what you said about jihadist Christian comments make me wonder if you even looked at all of the movie you posted. The introduction with the kids and thier sticks was dramatic but nowhere did it say they were going to strap on bombs.
You really are rather full of yourself. Even your Avatar is designed to insult straight Christians and you see nothing wrong with that. Hypocrite. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: re: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
seoulunitarian
"Now, what gives you the right to post passages from the Quran without first responding to the jihadist passages from the Bible I posted on your thread?
How arrogant can you get? Telling people what they can post. What a crock of cr@p.
From what you said about jihadist Christian comments make me wonder if you even looked at all of the movie you posted. The introduction with the kids and thier sticks was dramatic but nowhere did it say they were going to strap on bombs.
You really are rather full of yourself. Even your Avatar is designed to insult straight Christians and you see nothing wrong with that. Hypocrite. |
I am not talking about clips from the movie. 5Eagles started a thread a while back concerning Muslim views of homosexuality, and I posted a list of passages from the Bible that are equally jihadist to anything you find in the Quran. He/She never replied to that post, but somehow thinks I should spend my time addressing his/her list of Quran passages.
Fundies have an intellectual disconnect from the meanings of the words they use that I just cannot wrap my pagan mind around. I never said the camp leader was instructing the kids to strap on bombs. I said that was the logical next step of her philosophy.
How does insulting straight Christians make me a hypocrite? Anyway, my avatar is not designed to insult anyone - maybe to shock (for a purpose) but not to insult.
Peace |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I saw the video today.
Is it just me, or was scence with the George Bush cut-out essentially idoltary worship?
Is it just me, or was the Ted Haggart scence just plain creepy considering how he turned out to be?
Is it just me, or did the people in thoses evangelical rallies look like they were high on some kind of hallucinogen?
Is it just me, or was it not ironic that the evangelical summer camp was held at a place called Devil's Lake, North Dakota?
Is it just me, or did anybody hope that one of the ministers would cut of that horroble rat tail on that little kid preacher?
Is it just me, or was that blond in the bowling alley not fine as hell?
Is it just me, or was that Australian sounding preacher not the scariest of the bunch? |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
I do not hate Christianity. I hate fundamentalism, even of the Muslim type. I am not sure how you can sit in front of your computer and assume I am blind to injustice. Actually, if you take a look at my website, you will see that I donate 10% of everything I make to charities. My religion makes me more sensitive to injustice and attempting to eradicate it rather than sending me on a witch hunt to "pull beams out of other people's eyes." |
Did you begin this post by stating,
| Quote: |
| One step to strapping on the bombs. |
Aren't you making a rather large judgment of Christianity by making this rather broad and sweeping statement in your first original post?
I have responded to you thoughts on Christians jihadists. Like I have said previously, it is summed up in the life of Christ. He is the fullfillment of the law.
| Quote: |
| 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. |
Hebrews 1
Jesus Christ took the wrath of God on the cross. He died for all of our sakes so we could escape the judgment and instead receive His love. It's a free choice of grace. In which you have the choice to either believe or deny. Without the worry that I am going to come to your house and bomb you or hate on you. Instead, as you know, you are welcome to meet with me to hang out. Like we have done on msn or have you forgotten?
Instead, for some reason, you rationalize that a girl who wants to open a nail parlor and evangelise to other people is on the same level to those who talk about killing infidels by suicide bombs and guns. 
So here is the movie again,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b2QhQQpHck
Notice that the kids in it are packing guns, bro. A whole lot different than nail brushes, cheesy hair dos and smiles. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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fiveeagles:
Salvatiom by grace alone is simply a horrific misreading os scripture, of basically cherry picking a few passages that give you the misperceptions that only those p[orfessing Jesus are saved.
If that is your faith then you condemn to hell all those billions who never have or could have heard of Jesus, it is an abomination. Even the Koran, bad as it is, is not that bad. Try adding the parable of the good Samaritan or the Epistle of Jame to yout repertoire.
[img]  [/img] |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
I do not hate Christianity. I hate fundamentalism, even of the Muslim type. I am not sure how you can sit in front of your computer and assume I am blind to injustice. Actually, if you take a look at my website, you will see that I donate 10% of everything I make to charities. My religion makes me more sensitive to injustice and attempting to eradicate it rather than sending me on a witch hunt to "pull beams out of other people's eyes." |
Did you begin this post by stating,
| Quote: |
| One step to strapping on the bombs. |
Aren't you making a rather large judgment of Christianity by making this rather broad and sweeping statement in your first original post?
I have responded to you thoughts on Christians jihadists. Like I have said previously, it is summed up in the life of Christ. He is the fullfillment of the law.
| Quote: |
| 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. |
Hebrews 1
Jesus Christ took the wrath of God on the cross. He died for all of our sakes so we could escape the judgment and instead receive His love. It's a free choice of grace. In which you have the choice to either believe or deny. Without the worry that I am going to come to your house and bomb you or hate on you. Instead, as you know, you are welcome to meet with me to hang out. Like we have done on msn or have you forgotten?
Instead, for some reason, you rationalize that a girl who wants to open a nail parlor and evangelise to other people is on the same level to those who talk about killing infidels by suicide bombs and guns.
So here is the movie again,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b2QhQQpHck
Notice that the kids in it are packing guns, bro. A whole lot different than nail brushes, cheesy hair dos and smiles. |
Yes, I did begin the thread by posting, "...one step to strapping on the bombs." And it is. As you are certainly aware, I was not referring to mainstream Christianity (for which I have somewhat of an affinity), but to the fundamentalists represented in the Jesus Camp video.
I did not say the little girl was like the jihadists. I said she was traumatized by those who want to make her into a jihadist, and that her career plans are bit spooky. She is a pawn in the camp leader's game.
How many times do I have to say that I hate Muslim violence as well as any other kind? You seem to think that by showing a violent Muslim video, whatever violence occurs within the realm of Christian fundamentalism is thereby excusable. They are both inexcusable, and I have never said anything to the contrary.
Peace |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: re: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
fiveeagles:
Salvatiom by grace alone is simply a horrific misreading os scripture, of basically cherry picking a few passages that give you the misperceptions that only those p[orfessing Jesus are saved.
If that is your faith then you condemn to hell all those billions who never have or could have heard of Jesus, it is an abomination. Even the Koran, bad as it is, is not that bad. Try adding the parable of the good Samaritan or the Epistle of Jame to yout repertoire.
[img] [/img] |
Did I read somewhere that you are a Mormon? If not, please forgive the following:
Salvation by grace is certainly despicable, in that it continues the picture of God the Father as wrathful and unable to forgive simply by choosing to forgive. This to me seems to be at a moral level even below most humans.
But don't Mormons believe you can work your way to owning your own planet with a multitude of wives (I know polygamy is not as popular as it once was, but the Mormon idea of salvation is still ruling over a planet with many wives)? And that God the Father is simply an evolved human? - that actually makes more sense to me than the traditional Judeo-Christian representation of God.
Sorry for getting off topic, and I would love to discuss Mormon theology on another thread if you want.
Peace |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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seoul unitarian:
Our take on salvation by grace is encapsuled in two phrases:
1. For as in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Adam by his "transgression" (not sin) brought death into the world. Jesus by has resurrection brought life after death.
2. For it is by grace ye are saved, after all you can do.
The resurrection is universal what you get thereafter depends on what you merited by your conduct in this life.
To attain exhaltation, the highest level of resurrection it is necessary to be married. One opposite gender wife or husband is enough. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Yes, I did begin the thread by posting, "...one step to strapping on the bombs." And it is. As you are certainly aware, I was not referring to mainstream Christianity (for which I have somewhat of an affinity), but to the fundamentalists represented in the Jesus Camp video. |
SU, I guess I can understand your fear, since most things that are done with such zealousness usually turns to evil. However, this won't turn to evil, but will bring the glory of God to the earth. The preacher at the end of the video is Lou Engle and he is pioneering a movement that is the real deal. SU this video is a image of what mainstream Christianity is going to look like in ten years.
| Quote: |
| I did not say the little girl was like the jihadists. I said she was traumatized by those who want to make her into a jihadist, and that her career plans are bit spooky. She is a pawn in the camp leader's game. |
Who? The leader of the camp? Are you crazy? That lady is a friend of a friend and she is a sweet as any grandmother you can know. Are you afraid because she is passionate about what she believes in?
| Quote: |
| How many times do I have to say that I hate Muslim violence as well as any other kind? |
Well, that's a first that I have seen you do that.
| Quote: |
| You seem to think that by showing a violent Muslim video, whatever violence occurs within the realm of Christian fundamentalism is thereby excusable. They are both inexcusable, and I have never said anything to the contrary. |
Don't put words into my mouth. It's a very unbecoming characteristic of yours. I have never said that or will ever condone that. I have said and even started threads on how I believe that religion is one of the worse evils this world knows and Christianity has done horrible things. I don't disagree with you on that. What I am trying to show to you is that this camp is not the beginning of homemade bombs and machine guns |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Five Eagles has a rather warped idea of what mainstream Christianity may become. This is understandable as he has all the appearance of a real zealot.
Let me ask you this Five Eagles. do you consider Mormons to be Christian, or for that matter Catholics.
All of the above said< I still have no objections to those like you running your Jesus Camps any way you like. Christianity has lost its militancy and its faith in morass of niceness and political correctness. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: Re: re: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Yes, I did begin the thread by posting, "...one step to strapping on the bombs." And it is. As you are certainly aware, I was not referring to mainstream Christianity (for which I have somewhat of an affinity), but to the fundamentalists represented in the Jesus Camp video. |
SU, I guess I can understand your fear, since most things that are done with such zealousness usually turns to evil. However, this won't turn to evil, but will bring the glory of God to the earth. The preacher at the end of the video is Lou Engle and he is pioneering a movement that is the real deal. SU this video is a image of what mainstream Christianity is going to look like in ten years.
| Quote: |
| I did not say the little girl was like the jihadists. I said she was traumatized by those who want to make her into a jihadist, and that her career plans are bit spooky. She is a pawn in the camp leader's game. |
Who? The leader of the camp? Are you crazy? That lady is a friend of a friend and she is a sweet as any grandmother you can know. Are you afraid because she is passionate about what she believes in?
| Quote: |
| How many times do I have to say that I hate Muslim violence as well as any other kind? |
Well, that's a first that I have seen you do that.
| Quote: |
| You seem to think that by showing a violent Muslim video, whatever violence occurs within the realm of Christian fundamentalism is thereby excusable. They are both inexcusable, and I have never said anything to the contrary. |
Don't put words into my mouth. It's a very unbecoming characteristic of yours. I have never said that or will ever condone that. I have said and even started threads on how I believe that religion is one of the worse evils this world knows and Christianity has done horrible things. I don't disagree with you on that. What I am trying to show to you is that this camp is not the beginning of homemade bombs and machine guns |
If this is what mainstream Christianity will look like in ten years, what will fundamentalist Christianity look like? The leader of the camp is a sincere believer in a method of brainwashing children. I have no doubt of her sincerity, her faith, or her genuine love for people. However, her actions and her words have somewhat of a disconnect. Love/war. Peace/battle. Laying down your life is good/laying down your life is bad. It seems to me that she approaches a borderline personality.
Forgive me, but I do not remember your thread on religion as a partly evil force in the world. I may be mistaken, and if so, please point me to that thread.
Peace |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Sickening and frightening. I felt sad watching it. If these people ever gain real power (maybe they already have?) I feel its the begining of the end for the US.
What the hell was all that gibberish they would occasionally break into? Never seen that before. |
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