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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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 Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| But, generally, the people who use "social construct" reduce most things if not everything, including reality itself, to this description. Taken to its extreme, it would follow that one could not be friends or have a friendly attitude towards anything, then. |
So are you 'friends' with Coca-Cola? Boeing? Toyota? Krispy Kreme?
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| In any case, most people, even postmodernists, seem to clearly understand the so-called Special Relationship. I believe W. Bush and not a few of his predecessors have thanked London for its friendship, just as Clinton once thanked Bonn for the same thing. |
I'm not talking about the special relationship, Gopher, or about any other inter-governmental relationships. I don't think that was unclear in my post. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:20 am Post subject: |
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If you want to so strongly resist, challenge, and/or defy each and every term of communication, or at least the ones that make you uncomfortable, then communication and exchanges become impossible.
If what I said truly makes no sense to you, if it has no meaning to you at all, then so be it. No point in continuing. I guess this is one of the scenarios Mannheim addressed, Gang ah jee: we apparently cannot talk.
By the way...
| W. Bush wrote: |
| I look forward to spending a good three hours talking to our friend about how to keep the peace...It's awfully thoughtful of Tony to come over here. It's an important meeting, because he's an important ally, an important friend... |
| W. J. Clinton wrote: |
| Chancellor Kohl, I thank you for being America's great friend and for proving in the inordinate sacrifices made by the German people and the German government since the Wall came down that unification can be a reality... |
And would you like me to start listing the multitudinous socially-constructed private foundations and/or institutions like alumni networks that call one level of contributors "friends?"
In any case, here are some I found in a quick, random search...
How about a Green NGO called Friends of the Earth?
Friends of Libraries?
Here is a socially-constructed geographical structure...
Friends of the Lake District.
And why can America not have "friends" while Europe can...?
Same question for Africa, an incredible complex aggregate of peoples, cultures, and individuals... |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:28 am Post subject: |
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Ok, this is just getting silly!
Gopher, the issue with the analogy isn't intended to be mere nitpicking for the sake of it. I agree that it works at a certain level - that is, when you're using it to illustrate how you feel. However, it starts getting strained when you're suggesting that people must think about what kind of friend to the US they are (which is getting to 'for us or against us' territory), and it gets really off track with the suggestion that we should show the same kind of loyalty on a personal (note: not governmental) level that we do to our actual friends. This is my problem with it - accepting the friend analogy allows you to use the conceptual set of human friendship to evaluate individual positions in relation to 'the US'. If you don't believe me, check back at your response to Big_Bird's reductio ad absurdum of your analogy.
So yes, I take your point that some ways of addressing problems with the US are more effective than others, and that there are different kinds of criticism (for the record, typical Korean anti-Americanism makes me extremely angry - I've actually come to blows about it). I'll add as well that since the US is so central to world politics, and is also the world's number one producer of criticism of US policy, it is easy to feel like the US is public domain and not keep in mind that people can get offended by critical talk from foreigners. You're the first person to ever suggest that I'm anti-American, however.
The other thing is (and I'm sorry about this) but we expect the US to be perfect. It's not an easy job being in the spotlight as the world's most powerful country and greatest hope/fear.
Anyway, sorry for bringing it off-topic a bit. This is an interesting topic that I think is worth discussing, and I wasn't intending to derail it into petty squabbling as I did.
Last edited by gang ah jee on Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:44 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
(b) a "friend" who resents you, who promotes the enemy's propaganda line in public, and who often and chronically angrily denounces you, etc.
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My earlier response was written playfully (I'm sure I don't need to tell you that, but there are definitely some on these boards who will need that pointing out to them) but I thought I might address seriously the issue of resentment, which is fast beginning to rear its head since the Bush administration took over.
This article addresses the issue of resentment, and highlights an example of why people from 'friendly nations' might feel hostility toward our ally:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/yasmin_alibhai_brown/article2237708.ece
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Four years ago, Lance Corporal Matthew 'Matty' Hull was killed by American soldiers in Iraq - another case of what is described as "friendly fire" by the US. Meaning what exactly? That the bullets were warm and tender as they penetrated the bodies of their closest allies? That death was made more bearable by the fact that it was delivered by "friends" rather than sinister Arabs? The inquest was deeply upsetting for the soldier's family because the Pentagon refused to provide information or name the serviceman who shot Hull, his mother's only son.
Our own government colluded with those who withheld facts and evidence, another demonstration that the UK is now an ultra-subservient, client state of the US of A. Eventually vital recorded footage was released to the coroner's court. We now know his own buddies tried to save Hull's life and warn off the pilots blasting away from A-10 aircrafts.
There have been many such killings, mainly of soldiers but also of the reputable ITN reporter Terry Lloyd. In each case the US holds on to key information and its suspected personnel. None has ever attended any inquest. Not one British soldier has killed a US soldier in error. If this happened and we refused point blank to co-operate, we can anticipate the consequences.
The hyper-power behaving with such brash conceit at this time is only going to increase anti-American attitudes in the British population. Over the past four years an increasing number of Britons are losing patience with the big bully who once helped defend their country and stopped the Nazis. That generation of the grateful is dying off and with them the memory of the alliance. Cooing, reassuring pillow talk Blair whispers to Bush is keeping up the illusion of a relationship on the wane.
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Our relationship is very unequal, and many Brits (and nationals of other allied nations) feel that we are not treated with respect. The situation discussed feeds into that.
However, I think it is bloody awful when people take out their resentment on ordinary American individuals. How is an ordinary citizen to blame for his or her governments policies and actions? I used to feel quite sorry for South African visitors in London who were often harried because of the politcal situation in their country. It seemed quite wrong to single out individuals for attack. The writer mentions that too:
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For some years I have lectured to bright, elite undergraduates from New York University who are over in London for a semester. Each year, the young Americans share a greater unease, talk to me privately or e-mail me about how uncomfortable and unwelcome they are made to feel in pubs, clubs, cafes, university bars, spaces where the youthful jape and caper. Yankee baiting is rising; Bill Bryson's benign Britain is no more. The war on terror has had repercussions beyond all calculation. And the more badly the US authorities behave, the more it is ordinary Americans who are made to feel the heat of resentment.
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This is really out of order, and I would never treat a person badly just because he or she came from a country whose leadership behaved in ways in which I disapproved. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
The other thing is (and I'm sorry about this) but we expect the US to be perfect. It's not an easy job being in the spotlight as the world's most powerful country and greatest hope/fear.
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Yes, this is another good point. Why do we feel more let down when the US behaves badly, than say when China or Russia does? It's because we want to believe in all the ideals that the US espouses, and we are dismayed when we see that even the US doesn't always follow them (especially under this administration). It's like we don't mind the frumpy old crone who works at the fish market wearing her ugly ill-fitting factory produced flower print frock. But we can't bear it when the lovely Gywneth Paltrow turns up for the Oscars committing a fashion faux pax!  |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| gang ah jee wrote: |
The other thing is (and I'm sorry about this) but we expect the US to be perfect. It's not an easy job being in the spotlight as the world's most powerful country and greatest hope/fear.
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Yes, this is another good point. Why do we feel more let down when the US behaves badly, than say when China or Russia does? It's because we want to believe in all the ideals that the US espouses, and we are dismayed when we see that even the US doesn't always follow them (especially under this administration). It's like we don't mind the frumpy old crone who works at the fish market wearing her ugly ill-fitting factory produced flower print frock. But we can't bear it when the lovely Gywneth Paltrow turns up for the Oscars committing a fashion faux pax! |
If you're from Russia, you will be familiar with many people not wanting criticism of Mother Russia. The U.S. has many great ideals especially in days of old. Many people were inspired by the U.S. and there is still some of that going on, but in the name of those ideals one must be critical of certain things. The U.S. is doing some good things like its backing of democratic leader Fouad Seniora. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:45 am Post subject: |
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From the Independent article:
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| For the first time ever African-Americans are facing wrath, too, hauled over the coals for the duplicity of Colin Powell and the obnoxious Condoleezza Rice. |
If this is true, it means that these anti-American Brits are judging African-Americans by the actions of two people. If that's not outright racism, what is? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Our relationship is very unequal, and many Brits (and nationals of other allied nations) feel that we are not treated with respect. |
"Not treated with respect?"
Has it occurred to you that perhaps a great many Western Europeans criticize the United States for failing to consult them on what Washington should do next? That is, they resent their loss of influence as well. They want the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries back, when they themselves dominated the globe -- and much more brutally, I might add, than anything we have ever done (setting up vast, commercial, human slaving ops, Leopold in the Congo, etc.)...
Much of this Western European "criticism" has its own smug, condescending attitude. Do you not notice this?
| Adventurer wrote: |
| ...you will be familiar with many people not wanting criticism of Mother Russia... |
This exists in America, too -- at least in some quarters.
However, it does not exist in me. America has chosen the wrong leader, twice -- by a hair, sure, but legally chosen nonetheless -- and taken the wrong path in the Middle East -- on multiple levels.
I have no problem facing this.
Rather, I differ with those who find America morally irredeemable, unfit, evil, a plague upon the Earth, etc., etc. and that W. Bush and the Iraqi War are merely additional confirmation that the Great Satan's plans for world control and enslavement truly exist and therefore must be resisted, and so on (see Chavez's UN speech, for but one dramatic and explicit example). This "criticism" exceeds the bounds of reasonable concern and commentary.
That is, there is more to what many say about America than mere helpful, friendly counsel and/or criticism.
And those who criticize me and allege flag-waving, "my-country-right-or-wrong" motives on my part are just as simplistic, lacking in nuance and therefore blinded by their own hatred of America. Would they really tell us that we must either oppose, resist, and attack the United States or meekly serve as its mindless apologists...?
Hmm...? That is certainly how some talk on this forum.
So, then, are there multiple and varied positions to take with respect to the United States, or just the either/or choice?
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Rather, I differ with those who find America morally irredeemable, unfit, evil, a plague upon the Earth, etc., etc. and that W. Bush and the Iraqi War are merely additional confirmation that the Great Satan's plans for world control and enslavement truly exist and therefore must be resisted, and so on (see Chavez's UN speeh, for but one dramatic and explicit example). This "criticism" exceeds the bounds of reasonable concern and commentary. |
Gopher, to be honest you should add.....
And I will bring this up to any and all who criticize the U.S. government and even so much as begin to enter this avenue of debate. [and thus wholly show how much a hypocrite I too am, using the same sword as mine enemy]
Gopher, please get off your horse of "I'm the voice of reason and sanity". Everyone on this board who posts criticisms of the U.S. has one time or another made it clear, those criticisms are NOT in total and don't mean the U.S. people or even system of governance are anything of the above, you have outlined. That you won't swallow this and continually harp on it, accuse, malign, only waters down anything else you say. I suggest you take some time off your "apple pie" diet and spend 40 days in the desert neither hymns or battle regalia....
DD
DD
DD |
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