Korean Job Discussion Forums

[demaratus]

double post.

[endo]

Hey Q,

From what I could remember, the author adresses your issus later in the book.


Basically it came down to two reasons:


South and Central American crops were unable to survive in the colder climates of North America.

And distribution of these crops took very long to spread throughout the two continents.



Great book anways. I would love for the author to also examine in the future the impact psychoactive drugs played on human civilization. He discussed many other crops and plants in detail, however, I think his work was omitting a major key in human kinds growth and spiritual development.

[captain kirk]

For North America the food crops, where they were grown for settlements, were maize, squash, and beans (sketchy nutritional food base), not comparable to/as good as other staple crop sets in the world. As far north as Ohio I think it was, fueling the Mound Builders Culture. The maize wasn't what we know of as corn today, smaller cob.

North America has the Great Plains on which the buffalo roamed. Why not follow the buffalo instead of settling down. Why settle down when one can easily roam, following the buffalo? So the population density didn't ever build up, and things were just peachy, why change? Re; why didn't they learn to make metal, around the Great Lakes there is natural copper which was made into tools. Refining metal from ore is a sit-down kind of chore (piling up stones into a kiln type smelter). I guess they were just always on the move. Volcanic glass (stone) makes an edged point sharper than a surgical scalpal (it's just brittle).

A buffalo is a LOT of meat.

South America? It seems Diamond says that the maize, squash, bean food triad just wasn't enough in the Americas where people tried to settle. And nobody from across the seas came over to demonstrate metalworking so that it would stick.

[JMO]

[SuperFly]

I've had the book (sitting on my shelf) for about two years, haven't finished it yet, I got through chapter two and started reading other stuff.

[sistersarah]

glad to find this discussion. recently started reading this book....only 50 pages in. it's heavy....i've had to go back a few pages at times to verify things, refresh my brain, etc, but it's so interesting so far, i don't care if it takes me a year to read while reading lighter novels in between!

[Qinella]

Does anyone know about the question I asked earlier, on page 1? I'm curious about why the Africans did not develop superior weapons to conquer large predators, and how the North Americas were able to wipe out all large animals with their inferior weapons. (Iirc, Diamond argues that since large mammals going extinct in North America coincides with the migration of Clovis people, it can only mean that the Clovis wiped them all out in search of food.)

[endo]

I think disease had more to do with the wiping out of big game in the Americas as opposed to over hunting.

These people who crossed the Siberian land bridge (and also likely came by boat - if Easter Island was setteled then they must of also gone firther east to the coast of South America) came to a land which was completely isolated. It's animals therefore did not stand a chance when human came (along with their dogs) and trasmitted deadly viruses.


A similar thing happened when the Europeans first came to the Americas. Sure, many natives dies in conflict, but the overwhelming majority dies through disease.

[captain kirk]

The North American Native people had the atlatl. If you search 'atlatl' you'll find out lots of cool info about them. People in the U.S. have atlatl clubs and throwing events. The six foot dart (atlatl is a device that hooks over the end of the dart and, at the last moment, catapults the end of the dart forward. The dart is six feet, and flexible. The 'whoops' (bend) it does in its middle, when hoofed by the atlatl, gives the dart speed like a whip as it 'whoops', then straightens out and whooshes directly, with (then) extra force to the target. It goes a hundred miles an hour and packs a whallop!), with a stone point tip, is no 'inferior weapon'.

Do a search and you'll see the atlatl is basically a handle that acts as a leverage boost, a snappy, 'extra elbow'.

In South America there was the bola, made out of braided alpaca wool. This and other primitive weapons, when mastered, can't help but kill, muh hahaha (evil laugh). The mulga (very hard, dense acacia wood) hunting boomerang breaks ribs from a hundred meters away (thrown at kangaroos, or in aborigine inter-tribal wars).

I think you're underestimating primitive weapons, Quin. Re; Africa weren't the pygmy people killing elephants with their little bows, arrow tips poisoned? Get enough people pitching projectiles which embed deep in a large animal and get out the cutlery, hahaha.

From what I understand, Endo, when humans arrived over the Bering ice bridge they were the first (humans). The megafauna (ice age Mammoth, giant sloth, giant beaver, heh, etc.) didn't know enough to run. The humans picked off the big burgers (such as these animals) first, and when they were all gone had to settle for the small fry (like deer, buffalo, etc.). The same thing, Diamond says, happened in Australia. People arrived there and, first thing, wiped out the big burger animals, haha. Kill one mammoth and that's a lot of eating. Maybe they didn't bother to dry what they couldn't eat. And just went for another mammoth, until they were all gone. I could see that happening.

Endo, disease killed off the Megafauna of North America and not men? I guess it's possible. I think the Bering crossing was open for a long time. It's possible the animals that migrated over, with the humans chasing them, brought Eurasian diseases that were startling/deadly to the North American animals. I kinda like the bloodthirsty atlatl throwers on a killing spree taking out mammoths having a field day scenario, starring Charlton Heston as Grog, hahaha.

[Qinella]

Our beloved Flotsam had this to say on the matter, via email, and suggested I post it here:

GG and S is a fantastic book. When you get done with that you should read the blank slate by Steven Pinker. You would then pretty much have the macro and micro of how humans work.

As for the question you have hanging in Dave�s, the key is the difference between the types of animals and their migratory patterns. In North America, there were not many large predators, and those that were there did not follow herd animals for their food across the plains. Therefore they were easier to avoid and less of a problem in terms of attacking humans. The large land animals that the Native Americans wiped out referred to by Diamond were mostly herd animals like the mammoth and several types of deer/moose and, most importantly for Diamond�s overarching thesis, the North American horse. In Africa the numbers, size and fecundity of the native animal populations, both predators and prey, made it much more difficult to develop systematic weapons and hunting techniques for dealing with them. Just think of one mountain lion, one bear or even a pack of wolves vs. a den of lions, a pack of hyenas or the crocodiles in the Nile. Hell, even hippopotami kick ass.

They had a hell of a time in Africa.

One poster also said that disease brought by the original migrations from Asia had an effect on the fauna of NA. I don�t think there is any evidence for this. And large scale diseases like that rarely migrate between species.

[igotthisguitar]

The author left out BIG PHARMA

Who knows, maybe they'll manage to put a little more of the BIG picture together, and work to "tie it all" in come the sequel.

[Qinella]

[endo]

[Privateer]

[Qinella]