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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:28 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, BJWD; I see no evidence here that the woman is a neo-nazi. You overstate your case as usual when the word Islam is involved.
Let's get some things clear at the start. You and I both agree that religious belief is delusional. I assume that you and I both agree that the passages in those books are offensive. I would note that there are many Christians as well who would claim that those who don't agree with them are going to burn in hell (Jews, too, if they don't see the light at the last minute; you and me for sure). So, there's definitely bad stuff in those books and they shouldn't be used to teach children.
And you know what? There's no reliable evidence here that they are used to teach children. The books are present in the school (and I think that is a matter of concern), but the principal consistently argues that only other parts of the books, which fall within the approved curriculum (which is tolerant and respectful of other religions) are used. It's certainly possible that this is true. It's also possible that she is a liar. At this point we don't know. We would have to gather evidence to find out what is really happening (I won't say "What is the truth" because I know you have issues with truth).
Ah, but I can hear you saying that we do have evvidence, the words of someone from the inside. Someone who it turns out is a disgruntled ex-employee suing the school over his dismissal (where again we don't know whether it was just or not). Someone like that really wouldn't count as a reliable or unbiased source. We should be concerned about his veracity especially since, if he knew about the books and objected to them, we don't know why he didn't make them a public issue before he was fired.
There is a way to find out what really happened and that would be to investigate. A starting point might have been if the interviewer had asked better questions about the use of the books, rather than their presence. Another way of seeing the interview (different from how you do, I'm sure) is that he's a bully not interested in finding out what really happened, but instead with pushing a pre-determined agenda. And that's poor journalism.
I want you to note carefully what I've said here, BJWD. I set up certain premises that I think you and I agree on. I've established areas where evidence is lacking or weak for the claim that you make. I'm not saying that the claim you make is wrong, but that you haven't supported it adequately. Supply the evidence from reliable sources and I'll take your case more seriously.
My sense is that you feel when Islam is involved we don't have time to wait for evidence. It's guilt is predetermined and we should slam the door on it. My sense is that there are a lot of problems associated with Islam, but that we do harm to ourselves by responding to it with hysteria and not reason. We also do harm to ourselves if we assume that Muslims are monolithic and all represent some predeterined risk to us. And don't think I haven't noticed in other threads how you try to limit the definition of Muslim to your definition, and not allow Muslims who are moderate in to the community they claim for themselves. It's poor argumentation, especially from a guy who makes some claim to be educated. It creates a condition which is unreal, and argues that we must respond to it. We're actually better off responding to the pluralistic reality of the Islamic world.
You told me the other day to calm down, but I think the evidence here once again suggests that you are the one who needs to get in the grip of reason. I remain the calmest man you'll ever meet. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:32 am Post subject: |
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She said she would not remove a book that called Jews pigs. What part of that don't you get? This is a school that get public money.
She is a neo-nazi, but just hides her ideas behind a veil of "kuffar cannot understand the context of jews being pigs".
I dislike islam very, very much. And I think that there is sufficient evidence to back up my every criticism of it, and those who believe the koran to be anything more than poorly written hate-speech.
Those folks have Infidelophobia. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| She said she would not remove a book that called Jews pigs. What part of that don't you get? This is a school that get public money. |
If you look at the intereview and can't see that she is being badgered (and use of yes-no questions is a good way to badger people) and ignored when she tried to offer some context and explanation which would move beyond a yes-no answer, then you are blind. I would agree that she doesn't do the best job of presenting her case, but most people don't do well when badgered.
| BJWD wrote: |
| She is a neo-nazi, but just hides her ideas behind a veil of "kuffar cannot understand the context of jews being pigs". |
Again, as I pointed out above, the evidence doesn't support the claim that she is a neo-nazi.
I didn't see her wearing any veil at all, so your attempt to raise that issue here can only be a sign of desperation. An impression reinforced by producing a quote that exists only in your imagination.
| BJWD wrote: |
| I dislike islam very, very much. And I think that there is sufficient evidence to back up my every criticism of it, and those who believe the koran to be anything more than poorly written hate-speech. |
There's a lot to criticize Islam or any other religion about. But my sense is that you define Islam down to the boogeyman you want to hate, ignoring any evidence to the contrary, and then claim that your response to it is justified. The only Muslims, in this sense, are the ones that you create.
But as I pointed out above, in the real world, all Muslims don't match your definition and their understandings of Islam don't all match yours. And, choosing to live in the real world, I think we have to deal with these people, condemning those who support ideas like those in those books, and working with those who wish to see their religion develop in a different way. And we do this best with the tools of reason, not the unreason of hysteria.
| BJWD wrote: |
| Those folks have Infidelophobia. |
I think this comment proves my point. How much of the infidelophobia that you see is really your own islamophobia? To what extent is the breadth of infidelophobia that you see in the Muslim world a creation of your defining that world down. You are what you hate, BJWD. Vonnegut was right that we are what we hate; so we'd better be careful what we hate.
I sense it's very lonely being as right as you are about what's what, and having so many people not see it.
Or maybe, just maybe, they're right.
I keep suggesting here that you may be a smart guy, but that you let your obsessions get in the way of thinking clearly. Again, prove me wrong. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:59 am Post subject: |
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That School should either comply or get its public financing withdrawn that woman did an incredible dance areound the the issue.
Woland:
Perhaps you are simply biased and trying to hide it. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
| That School should either comply or get its public financing withdrawn that woman did an incredible dance areound the the issue. |
I agree that funding should be withdrawn if credible evidence is presented that children were taught using the offensive passages of those books. BJWD provided none. I simply pointed out that his conclusions were unsupported by the evidence provided.
| contrarian wrote: |
Woland:
Perhaps you are simply biased and trying to hide it. |
Yes, I have to confess. I have a bias for reason, for sustained coherent argument, in which evidence supports carefully drawn conclusions rather than hysterical exhalations. I'm so ashamed. You'll see it in so many of my posts. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:26 am Post subject: |
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heres part of what Woland said:
". . . and working with those who wish to see their religion develop in a different way. And we do this best with the tools of reason, not the unreason of hysteria . . .
You cannot reason with people such as that. They are beyond reason. A better term than hysteria would be "loathing".
Applying "secular rational thought" to deaply held, if vile, beliefs accomplsihes nothing. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
| BJWD wrote: |
| She said she would not remove a book that called Jews pigs. What part of that don't you get? This is a school that get public money. |
1) If you look at the intereview and can't see that she is being badgered (and use of yes-no questions is a good way to badger people) and ignored when she tried to offer some context and explanation which would move beyond a yes-no answer, then you are blind. I would agree that she doesn't do the best job of presenting her case, but most people don't do well when badgered.
| BJWD wrote: |
| She is a neo-nazi, but just hides her ideas behind a veil of "kuffar cannot understand the context of jews being pigs". |
2) Again, as I pointed out above, the evidence doesn't support the claim that she is a neo-nazi.
I didn't see her wearing any veil at all, so your attempt to raise that issue here can only be a sign of desperation. An impression reinforced by producing a quote that exists only in your imagination.
| BJWD wrote: |
| I dislike islam very, very much. And I think that there is sufficient evidence to back up my every criticism of it, and those who believe the koran to be anything more than poorly written hate-speech. |
3)There's a lot to criticize Islam or any other religion about. But my sense is that you define Islam down to the boogeyman you want to hate, ignoring any evidence to the contrary, and then claim that your response to it is justified. The only Muslims, in this sense, are the ones that you create.
But as I pointed out above, in the real world, all Muslims don't match your definition and their understandings of Islam don't all match yours. And, choosing to live in the real world, I think we have to deal with these people, condemning those who support ideas like those in those books, and working with those who wish to see their religion develop in a different way. And we do this best with the tools of reason, not the unreason of hysteria.
| BJWD wrote: |
| Those folks have Infidelophobia. |
4) I think this comment proves my point. How much of the infidelophobia that you see is really your own islamophobia? To what extent is the breadth of infidelophobia that you see in the Muslim world a creation of your defining that world down. You are what you hate, BJWD. Vonnegut was right that we are what we hate; so we'd better be careful what we hate.
5) I sense it's very lonely being as right as you are about what's what, and having so many people not see it.
Or maybe, just maybe, they're right.
6) I keep suggesting here that you may be a smart guy, but that you let your obsessions get in the way of thinking clearly. Again, prove me wrong. |
Alright. Here we go.
My opening remarks first..
Had this been in a Christian school, or a Jewish school with a book that said "muslims are terrorists" we would not be having a "debate" about it. The media would shhitt a cow of indignation and everybody would agree about how horrible it was. But, we expect the msulims to be racist thugs. We don't expect any better of them. It is very scary that we give a whole religion the benefit of the doubt.
Second, I'm with Dawkings and Harris. I've had enough of this "respect religion" bullshiitt. What these muslims believe in is wrong, and they should be criticized at every turn. They should be embarrassed to admit publicly what they believe, because it is embarrassing that a grownup believes such nonsense.
Our race cannot survive another 100 years of strong religious belief. The greatest gift that thinking people can give our world is the destruction of religious belief in all its forms. Sam Harris makes this point very, very well. You should watch his video about this, because I am not nearly as able to express this important truth as is he. When crazy muslims or christians start with their nonsense, they should be put in their place. We cannot survive their idiocy.
http://www.samharris.org/appearances/ideacity-06242005.wmv
Now, on to your obsession with me.
1) How would you present her case. By the by, her case is that a book that calls Jews pigs will not be removed from an elementary school. How would you defend that, if you were a crazy muslim?
2) Neo-nazi. Obviously, I was using hyperbole, but I do have faith that if I were to give her an "are you a nazi" test, she would ace it. A sensible, sane and non-nazi person would not sit there and just toss off racist textbooks in an elementary school as a matter of context. So she doesn't wear a veil. Big deal. No place in the Koran are women commanded to wear a veil. She can still be a wacky muslim, as she is, without a veil. But ok, I can see you want to split hairs as to what exactly she is and isn't, so we can agree, I hope, on her being an "anti-semitic, racist, brainwashed, infidelophobic islamic supremacist".
3) I actually dislike all religion almost equally. But we don't have wimpy liberal fools running around defending the rights of Christians to spout racist crap. We DO have idiot leftists defending and giving ideological shelter (see bb calling criticism of islam racist) to these thugs.
In fact, my problem isn't even so much with the idiot religious thugs themselves in so far as I am deeply offended at the foolish westerners whose guilt commands them to protect islam from any criticism. Muslims as a whole are programmed to have a very thin skin, and it doesn't help when westerners validate this.
4) Again. So, lets go over this.
i) muslim defends keeping anti-semitic books in an elementary classroom
ii) I post a video of it
iii) you say I am "islamophobic" for posting it.
Do you not see the problem with the above? Honestly, how do you think the serious thinkers of the past would regard this intellectual foolishness by people like you, and you? I'm stunned.
5) Lonely? Nah. What with all the pm's i get from people who agree with me.. I'm quite confident that I am right and the muslims are writing their own tickets home. The most rewarding things will be the "I told you so" internet tour I take in a few years.
6) My obsession.. Hey, I know a movie by that title.
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/ |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:11 am Post subject: |
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I'm not one to deny categorically that Muslims have some pretty reactionary and offensive views. But I have to honestly observe that what I saw on that video, in terms of the textbooks, doesn't strike me as all that different from what I can reasonably surmise as having been taught in Catholic or other religious schools until relatively recently.
re: non-Muslims in hellfire...
I once had a long conversation with an old, liberal Catholic priest who taught at my high school. When I asked him why he had become a priest, he replied "well, OTOH, the reasons I became a priest are not the reasons I stayed a priest. When I was young, I believed that everyone who wasn't a Christian was going to hell. So I became a priest because I wanted to save their souls." Now, this man was born in the 1920s, and I don't think his views were all that uncommon among Catholics in the 1940s. And in places where Catholics had their own schools(like Alberta and Manitoba), it wouldn't surprise me at all if this sort of ideology made it into the classroom one way or another.
re: Jews and Christians turned into pigs...
Remember, the book recounts a supposed incident where Jews and Christians were turned into pige, it doesn't say that Jews and Christians today are pigs.
I once owned a Catholic children's book called Little Stories Of The Saints. More than a few of the stories went roughly as follows...
"At that time, there were bad men called The [some religion that opposed the Catholic Church]. This made St. Whomever very sad, and he fought against these bad men, and defeated them." The book didn't go into precise detail about what type of fighting St. Whomever engaged in, but given that some of these saints were political leaders and military men, it woudn't surprise me if some of their endeavours weren't exactly up to Geneva Code standards. And the final page of the book contained a nice illustration of St. Michael The Archangel stomping on a decidedly down-for-the-count antichrist.
Like I said, this book was written for chidren. I'd wager that older Catholics at the time were getting somewhat clearer, and approving descriptions of what the Pope's legions got up to against their enemies.
Plus, of course, the Old Testament, which a lot of home-schoolers probably teach as fact to their kids, contains many approving passages of God striking people down in silmilar fashion to what the Muslim textbook described.
I guess what I'm saying is that, from what I can see, a lot of Muslims are probably similar to the way a lot of Christians were 50 years ago. Obviously, that's not a really great way to be, and would probably dash any starry-eyed multiculturalists hopes for a progressive-Muslim alliance. I'm not sure, though, if it really warrants all the "Eurabia" hoopla we've been treated to as of late. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| But as I pointed out above, in the real world, all Muslims don't match your definition and their understandings of Islam don't all match yours. And, choosing to live in the real world, I think we have to deal with these people, condemning those who support ideas like those in those books, and working with those who wish to see their religion develop in a different way. And we do this best with the tools of reason, not the unreason of hysteria. |
To add to this and the debate. A thought.
Let us remember that America was founded by those fleeing religious persecution. It was this notion of religious tolerance that was the start and the foundation of America of yesterday and I hope still today. This casting of shadows across "Islam" is pure religious intolerance. Let's judge these diverse peoples by other means....
I'm using my holidays to read a lot of things. Reread Rexroth (his history of Communalism is amazing) but also picked up yesterday, De Tocqueville's Democracy in America. Besides the very topical exhortation of how America must constantly be vigilant about not falling into an "invisible tyranny" or despotism (of the presummed majority), De Tocqueville emphasizes the essential and requisite need of a strong democracy for "equality". In fact, he says that it is this essential equality of people, that is the reason for America's special place in the world of now and the future. This includes religious practice and I would sing as MLK did, about the American dream, a return to that dream which is of "all men created equal" and people are not judged by the faith they pursue but by the character within....
DD |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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DD:
America was settled in some areas by those fleeing religious persection. Just like Israel in this day has been settled by those fleeing the holocaust.
The American religious community has made common cause with the Jews and Israel.
Muslims find this unforgivable.
Peaceful Muslims are on thing, the can come an assimilate or not. Do not attack us. America is more tolerant that way than is France.
That said tolerance goes no further. What is the US really saying in Iraq and Afghanistan? They are saying the price for trying to harm us is going to be too high to pay. You will not do so again without thinking about that.
There is also a price to pay for harmin our friends in Israel.
As the Japanese found out after Pearl Harbor, it is not a good idea to awaken the sleeping giant. That is what Bin Labia did.
The "all men a created equal" means they are created that way, what the do afterwards is up to them. It is a very different thing than "Human Rights" or even tolerance. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Our race cannot survive another 100 years of strong religious belief. The greatest gift that thinking people can give our world is the destruction of religious belief in all its forms. Sam Harris makes this point very, very well. You should watch his video about this, because I am not nearly as able to express this important truth as is he. When crazy muslims or christians start with their nonsense, they should be put in their place. We cannot survive their idiocy. |
Yes, yes, I know you think you're on the cutting edge with this breakthrough thinking about religion but, and you really need to look this in the eye, religion has been here long before you graced the world with your presence and will be here long after (even more than 100 years!) you're dead and buried and you are residing in...well...wherever you are.
The "important truth" is that some have tried to stomp out religion over the millennia, but it just hasn't happened. I know that just bugs the holy shit out of people like you but you might get a little nod of "I can see your point" if you would acknowledge that there may be something to religion other than "idiocy". I am perfectly aware that my religion goes against logic. Unfortunately, not everything can be explained away with logic. I've come to the conclusion that people can believe whatever they want (or not) but once you start thinking that you can "put me in my place" over my religious beliefs, then you really start looking like a fool. So, attack away. People aren't going to abandon what they know is the truth because people like you call them idiots. What's next? You want to kill people that are religious as well? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Kill? Are you high?
I want 1) an immigration policy that reflects the truth that a good number of muslims suffer from a racist mental disorder and 2) for the circular logic used by religious types to be called out as the crap it is whenever they use it publicly...even if the religious types happen to have a tan.
And no, I don't think I am "on the cutting edge", but with the intersection of technology and religious lunacy, I think that the context has changed. |
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