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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| God gave the land to the covenant descendantas of Abraham, throughy Isaac and Jacob (Israel) . That's the way it is! |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:57 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
The point is, my dear jaggsy, that you westerners apply double standards to different nations whenever it suits you. You are totally inconsistent, not to mention hypocritical, in your policies. Your grand judgement is swayed by political expediency, trends, transient fashionable philosophies, and economics. Is it any wonder the world is turning against the foreign policies of the US and the west???
U.S. (and puppets NZ, Aus, canada & U.K) Foreign policy manifesto.
native rights
Slogan:"the natives deserve sovereignty over the land'.
-so lets give back South Africa, Zimbabwe and a host of other nations to them, even though it ruins them in the process.
But lets not give back our own countries (U.S, Australia, NZ) to the natives, because then we'd have nowhere to live. In the case of our own natives, they have no rights. However we will die to protect the rights of other native peoples elsewhere in the world, so long as we can then exploit them ourselves, afterwards.
In the case of Israel, lets not support the natives: the Jews.Instead lets fill our lapdog media with anti semitic propoganda. In the case of Fiji, lets condemn the natives for attempting to gain power in their own country. |
Junior, the fact of the matter is that Israel has the worst human rights record of any so-called Western democracy, yet you're blind to this fact because of your religion. Disgusting.
| Junior wrote: |
Military intervention: is justified only if there are valuable resources we can exploit- such as Iraq or the tiny Kuwait. Lets mask it with the emotive 'freedom" propoganda. In the case of Mass genocide in countries without valuable resources, lets just do nothing, eg rwanda.
dictatorships: if the ruthless dictator is prepared to supply us with cheap resources or military bases etc, lets overlook his evil regime. (saudi Arabia). If a country bars our access to its resources, lets make a big deal of his supposed human rights abuses and make it a pariah state. (Venezuela).
deterrent: if a country has vast human rights abuses and nuclear weapons, give it money and do not attack.
if a country has vast human rights abuses but no nukes, attack it. But only if it has resources to make it worth the while."  |
I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, but I question its relevance. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Junior"]
| gang ah jee wrote: |
The Palestinians have been living in Jerusalem for longer than the Maori have been living in New Zealand and for longer than the Normans have been living in England. Sorry Junior, but they are natives. |
But not as long as the Jews.
That is bunk. The Palestinians are Semites. You are going based on a religion i.e. that Palestinians are either Christian or Muslim. That is like saying an Indian who follows a pagan belief is more native than an Indian who follows Christianity in Canada or America. It makes no sense. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: re: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
| God gave the land to the covenant descendantas of Abraham, throughy Isaac and Jacob (Israel) . That's the way it is! |
Poor Ishmael. His blood was half impure cause his mommie was Abraham's waygook sex slave  Sometimes, God is like a close-minded Korean.
Peace |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
The point is, my dear jaggsy, that you westerners apply double standards to different nations whenever it suits you. You are totally inconsistent, not to mention hypocritical, in your policies. Your grand judgement is swayed by political expediency, trends, transient fashionable philosophies, and economics. Is it any wonder the world is turning against the foreign policies of the US and the west???
U.S. (and puppets NZ, Aus, canada & U.K) Foreign policy manifesto.
native rights
Slogan:"the natives deserve sovereignty over the land'.
-so lets give back South Africa, Zimbabwe and a host of other nations to them, even though it ruins them in the process.
But lets not give back our own countries (U.S, Australia, NZ) to the natives, because then we'd have nowhere to live. In the case of our own natives, they have no rights. However we will die to protect the rights of other native peoples elsewhere in the world, so long as we can then exploit them ourselves, afterwards.
In the case of Israel, lets not support the natives: the Jews.Instead lets fill our lapdog media with anti semitic propoganda. In the case of Fiji, lets condemn the natives for attempting to gain power in their own country.
Military intervention: is justified only if there are valuable resources we can exploit- such as Iraq or the tiny Kuwait. Lets mask it with the emotive 'freedom" propoganda. In the case of Mass genocide in countries without valuable resources, lets just do nothing, eg rwanda.
dictatorships: if the ruthless dictator is prepared to supply us with cheap resources or military bases etc, lets overlook his evil regime. (saudi Arabia). If a country bars our access to its resources, lets make a big deal of his supposed human rights abuses and make it a pariah state. (Venezuela).
deterrent: if a country has vast human rights abuses and nuclear weapons, give it money and do not attack.
if a country has vast human rights abuses but no nukes, attack it. But only if it has resources to make it worth the while." |
My dear boy Junior, you are completely potty. Here is the logic of your argument broken down into simple form
Palestinian Muslims should be forced out of Jerusalem for the Jews who were the original inhabitants some 1300 years ago because it's rightfully their land....
But
White European settlers who took over Zimbabwe in the 19th century should not be kicked off their land because the natives are dumb and lazy.
whatever
For the record, I don't need a lecture on political expediency and the like. I am well aware of the numerous injustices in the world, past and present. There is a prevailing mode of thought in international relations that states it's best to do what is in your state's interests. It's called realpolitik. People get f#cked over by it. Deal with it.
BTW, I completely support the right of whites to stay in Zim, however you must admit that applying the first argument to Israel and then negating it in the African context is hypocrisy. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:04 am Post subject: |
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jaganath:
You pretend some expertise. You have it wrong.
The Jews were run out about 70 AD when the temple was torn down, the last of them were killed or committed suicide shortly thereafter at Masada. The Muslims came about 700 AD to what was then a largely Byzantine Christian society and did a little "conversion by the sword". The Dome of the Rock was built thereafter.
As to Zimbabwe. After the whites did a UDI and then ignored the Brits ptotestations of outrage a deal was made that the white farmers could stay. The stayed and more and more of them were forced out by Mugabe.
Since the whites left, the country which had been a food exporter is now literally starving to death. The native appear to be totally incompetant.
What the holy land requires is a lot of selective "ethnic adjustment". |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
jaganath:
You pretend some expertise. You have it wrong.
The Jews were run out about 70 AD when the temple was torn down, the last of them were killed or committed suicide shortly thereafter at Masada. The Muslims came about 700 AD to what was then a largely Byzantine Christian society and did a little "conversion by the sword". The Dome of the Rock was built thereafter.
As to Zimbabwe. After the whites did a UDI and then ignored the Brits ptotestations of outrage a deal was made that the white farmers could stay. The stayed and more and more of them were forced out by Mugabe.
Since the whites left, the country which had been a food exporter is now literally starving to death. The native appear to be totally incompetant.
What the holy land requires is a lot of selective "ethnic adjustment". |
Yes, the Israelites were largely expelled. The other Semites were there including the Edomites, relatives of the Hebrews, Canaanites, and the Arab Nabataens. The Muslim Arabs took over Palestine and for some centuries the majority were indigenous Christians who converted to Islam. So the idea of the Palestinians not being indigenous because they don't happen to be pagan Nabatean or Canaanite speakers is as ridiculous as the Korean notion of the pure tracing to Taygun or however you spell his name. Anyway, the European Jews are also heavily mixed themselves with the Turkic Khazars who converted to Judaism and some Jews bare Turkic Khazar last names like Kaplan, Kagan, Sagan etc...
They are both legitimite there with Semitic ties to the land and they are borthers in terms of blood and extremely close when it comes to DNA and the bloodshed must end.
As far as Zimbabwe, it is not the fault of the whites that their grandparents behaved in a bad way under colonialism. The food situation is urgent in Zimbabwe, and it was not that way when the whites with training ran huge farms. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Jews were not only there before "palestinians", they have held an unbroken presence there for 3000 years. Although of course, they haven't always been the majority.
If that isn't a case for land rights I don't know what is.
Where are you from, Jaganath? |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
Jews were not only there before "palestinians", they have held an unbroken presence there for 3000 years. Although of course, they haven't always been the majority.
If that isn't a case for land rights I don't know what is.
Where are you from, Jaganath? |
You could argue based on this statement that Jews of Yemen have an unbroken presence when compared to the Muslim Yemenites because the Yemenites are Muslim and not pagans since they converted to Islam. It would not mean Yemenites are not indigenous to Yemen or less so than the Jews. The Palestinians have an unbroken presence since they are part of a melting pot that never left. The Ashkenazis left a long time ago. There were some Sephardic elements. Even Saladin invited the Jews to Jersualem. They were expelled by the Crusaders, so they technically didn't have an unbroken presence in Jerusalem. Let us get beyond propaganda and admit both have rights there. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: re: |
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Again, wasn't Ishmael Abraham's first son? And if you're basing ownership of Israel on biblical literature (which I am certainly not in favor of), shouldn't the descendants of Ishmael have rights to the land?
Peace |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: Re: re: |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
Again, wasn't Ishmael Abraham's first son? And if you're basing ownership of Israel on biblical literature (which I am certainly not in favor of), shouldn't the descendants of Ishmael have rights to the land?
Peace |
Yes, according to the Old Testament Ishmael was the first son and not Isaac but many Jews say he was not legitimate since he was not the son of a woman who was married to Abraham. However, the Palestinians in question are not really the sons of Ishmael exclusively as much as they are also the sons of Kenaan (from whence came the Canaanites) and Aram from whence came the Arameans. People assume Ishmael with the Palestinians because from Ishmael supposedly came the Arabs, but Arabic is simply the dominant language of the region which many Jews also spoke until recently. It does not denote a change of DNA anymore than religion. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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How is it that white americans supposedly have unquestionable right to live in America? they've only been there a few generations. they also kiled most of the native people, instead of living alongside them.
How are they fit to judge the legitimacy of a people who have lived 3000 years in israel? |
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Gamecock
Joined: 26 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
How is it that white americans supposedly have unquestionable right to live in America? they've only been there a few generations. they also kiled most of the native people, instead of living alongside them.
How are they fit to judge the legitimacy of a people who have lived 3000 years in israel? |
You're so right Junior! Who are you to judge that Israel is in the right and holds claim to the land? Who is anyone to judge? America shouldn't be involved in this situation at all! I say the U.S. should take back all the guns, jets, nukes, the billions in financial support it has given to either side. Let the Arabs and the Jews sort it all out via law of the jungle. I'm sure since the Jews are God's chosen people he will give them miraculous victories over their enemies without any American support! |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Junior wrote: |
How is it that white americans supposedly have unquestionable right to live in America? they've only been there a few generations. they also kiled most of the native people, instead of living alongside them.
How are they fit to judge the legitimacy of a people who have lived 3000 years in israel? |
So you are essentially saying that Canadians and Americans should simply write checks to the Israelis and not talk about politics and history.
You can't have it both ways. It doesn't matter whether Americans have lived in America for a few generations or not. How many generations have Israelis with the last name Sheinbaum have in Israel? Maybe 80 years. Ashkenazis don't have a longer history in Israel than many Americans do in America if you want to be historically accurate. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:52 am Post subject: |
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adventurer:
I do see more than a touch of anti-Semitism in your posts. The old faithful bullroar that the Ashkenaz ar not "real" Jews, because of the Khazar influence, the influence of other racial mixes in Europe. So what? For generations they have condisdered themselves Jews. Yes, what Jewish presence there was in the Holy Land for a very long time, was primarily Sephardic. They are Jews too.
God made a covenant with Abraham that his son by Sarah would be convenant son, Isaac. Isaac had two sons only one of which was the covenant son and the Jacob who had 12 sons. This is where Israel starts. One of those sons was Judah. That is where the Jews start with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and a smattering of Levites.
The prophesies about the return of the Jews are several thousand years o;d. It is happening and sooner or later there will be a move to restore the temple. That too is prophesied. It need not be but I expect tbat event will be brutal. |
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