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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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 Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Svetlana wrote: |
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| WILL MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS IN THE WEST ASSIMILATE? |
Why should they? Did the Europeans assimilate when they immigrated to Native Indian land? NO! |
Kevin Costner did, you moron. |
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Svetlana wrote: |
| Quote: |
| WILL MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS IN THE WEST ASSIMILATE? |
Why should they? Did the Europeans assimilate when they immigrated to Native Indian land? NO! |
Kevin Costner did, you moron. |
So did Aragorn (Viggo something) in that film about the horse race in Arabia. Begin's with an 'F' I think..... Anyone??
*Edit - It just came to me! 'Hidalgo.' I wanted to say 'Fargo' but really I knew it wasn't that.... |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| tiger fancini wrote: |
| Pligganease wrote: |
| Svetlana wrote: |
| Quote: |
| WILL MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS IN THE WEST ASSIMILATE? |
Why should they? Did the Europeans assimilate when they immigrated to Native Indian land? NO! |
Kevin Costner did, you moron. |
So did Aragorn (Viggo something) in that film about the horse race in Arabia. Begin's with an 'F' I think..... Anyone??
*Edit - It just came to me! 'Hidalgo.' I wanted to say 'Fargo' but really I knew it wasn't that.... |
Yeah, Fargo was about feeding people to a wood chipper. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
huffandpuffdaddy:
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| Attempting to analyze this study for any trends or behavior patterns is worthless. There is no control group. Without both control and study groups, and an attempt to correct for socio-economic selection biases, the study means nothing. |
Spoken like a true quantitative researcher. Ever heard of qualitative research design? Welcome to the new century of data collection and analysis. SES has no bearing on the finding that there are indeed some (re: enough) British Muslims willing to endorse violence against their own government.
La-Dee-Dah Boy,
A feeble attempt at sarcasm. Nice try propping up the Straw Man argument but it doesn't negate my concern nor counter my contention that the mainstream media covers only what it deems newsworthy. Raise the banner of diversity at all costs! I'm not trolling and saying so doesn't remove you from an obligation to address my concern point-by-point unless your only purpose is to snipe. The contempt for British society is not only from adolescents and is far more than a generational gap issue. Yet another feeble attempt to downplay the reality.
Adventurer:
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| Probably more Armenian Americans get killed in the U.S. than Armenians get killed in Turkey and so many Turks condemned the killing. I don't think you're being fair to the Turks. |
Time to stop sniffing that cigar. I never insinuated that Turks were rabid idealogues but there is a strong nationalist AND ideological element in their midst. That journalist was speaking of the genocide of Armenians in the early 20th century, so where you bring in American Armenians is a mystery to me.
[You are supposed to sniff the cigar before you smoke it, so you are asking to me to follow an illogical idea. I will take it further. You were talking about Islam and Muslims. There is a difference between taking out an Armenian over nationalism just like when a German killed someone in Germany over right wing nationalistic ideas. Do the Turks have a problem with nationalism. Yes? Are they more secular than their neighbours. Yes. Does this murder fit into this talk about Muslims? No.
Religion was not connected to this in any real way.
On the other hand:
The riots were the result of a laundry list of perceived and actual injustices to mostly Algerian immigrants in France. But one of the biggest bones of contention was the French government's opposition to girls' school garb, a reflection of Sharia law.
Paranoid? Yeah, right. I should just calm down and not worry about people tinkering with bombs to destroy innocent life. Your reaction plays right into the hands of the Islamofascists. |
[You are supposed to sniff the cigar before you smoke it, so you are asking to me to follow an illogical idea. I will take it further. You were talking about Islam and Muslims. There is a difference between taking out an Armenian over nationalism just like when a German killed someone in Germany over right wing nationalistic ideas. Do the Turks have a problem with nationalism. Yes? Are they more secular than their neighbours. Yes. Does this murder fit into this talk about Muslims? No.
Religion was not connected to this in any real way.
[You are using fear to distorct facts like with the Turkish example. As far as France, they weren't fighting the government because they wanted Sharia. There is huge unemployment among the youth, discrimination from both sides, a disconnect between some of the North African youth and the French. Painting all the rioters as some fellows with beards attacking the government is kind of a little too much. Also, many of the rioters were also blacks from Sub-Saharan Africa. That is missing from your post.
Last edited by Adventurer on Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: WILL MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS IN THE WEST ASSIMILATE? |
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| The Guardian wrote: |
| said pupils had been heard saying they wanted to kill Americans, that 9/11 was good, and that Osama bin Laden was a hero. |
Sound just like the 12 year old Korean kids I used to teach at summer/winter camp. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: WILL MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS IN THE WEST ASSIMILATE? |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| The Guardian wrote: |
| said pupils had been heard saying they wanted to kill Americans, that 9/11 was good, and that Osama bin Laden was a hero. |
Sound just like the 12 year old Korean kids I used to teach at summer/winter camp. |
Did you encourage it? |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
huffandpuffdaddy:
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| Attempting to analyze this study for any trends or behavior patterns is worthless. There is no control group. Without both control and study groups, and an attempt to correct for socio-economic selection biases, the study means nothing. |
Spoken like a true quantitative researcher. Ever heard of qualitative research design? Welcome to the new century of data collection and analysis. SES has no bearing on the finding that there are indeed some (re: enough) British Muslims willing to endorse violence against their own government. |
True, I'm biased towards quantitative research. But I do see value in qualitative research as well. But without some sort of comparison (e.g. what percentage of British Catholics were willing to endorse violence against their own government in the the 1970's) it is hard to become alarmed by the results. Especially when, in reality, there is only a small fraction of a percent who have actually resorted to violence.
The most interesting thing that comes out of the data is that younger Muslims are more fundamentalist than older Muslims. Makes you think that maybe recent policies are doing more harm than good. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: ... |
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WILL MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS IN THE WEST ASSIMILATE? |
NO, THEY WON'T. THEY'LL JUST BURROW INTO THE HOLLOW HOLE YOU CALL A SOUL. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Am I being alarmist? |
Yes.
And bigoted.
And intellectually dishonest since you cherry-picked data.
And a liar since you misrepresented the cause of those riots.
More education than all of us combined, and you can't even bring yourself out of the Hannity-hole of idiocy. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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To the Majority of Those Who Responded to This Thread:
It never ceases to amaze or sicken me how many leftists will go out of their way to downplay, diminish, justify, excuse, and otherwise explain away an undeniable rising tide of cultural rejection by Muslim immigrants to Western European countries. It demonstrates again what I've always suspected: a leftist will rally to the defense of outsiders and give them the benefit of the doubt before they will accord the same to their own governments. It is a quinessential characteristic of idealogues; the utter disregard for the very institutions that have enabled them to speak out in the first place. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| It is a quinessential characteristic of idealogues; the utter disregard for the very institutions that have enabled them to speak out in the first place. |
That's the key. You can have free speech, as long as you agree with me.  |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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twg:
I'll address our Resident Cynic first. Let's say you're correct, that what I offer in the way of cursory evidence is indeed "cherry picking." Well, I'll extend your metaphor. So we have a cherry tree. Some of the fruit is ripe and ready to "eat," i.e., Muslim youth ready and eager to assimilate into Western society. Then you have the as yet unripe fruit, impressionable and therefore open to both good and bad influences. This is most of the fruit on the tree, most of the harvest in the future, so to speak. And then their is the rotten fruit that falls to the ground. And, yes, I'm paying attention to the rotten cherries because maybe they have a disease that will infect the whole tree. Can't see the tree for the cherries?
As for your accusation of bigotry, point to precisely what in my original post is indicative of it. And why is it that any time someone from the majority culture calls into question the actions of the minority, they are immediately labeled a bigot? Of course, it's to silence debate and dismiss the concern out of hand, which is what cynics enjoy doing. It also ignores the fact that those who stand to suffer from radical Islam are the moderates in their community. Right now, the community from which the kidnap plotters came in Britain is being scrutinized. Even its most prominent mullah is shamed by these events. So how it that a matter of bigotry, when addressing this problem head-on can ameliorate ethnic and racial tensions?
huffdaddy:
| Quote: |
| Especially when, in reality, there is only a small fraction of a percent who have actually resorted to violence. |
It only takes that number to fly two jets into skyscrapers or blow up a subway. Amazing how dispassionate discussion of this methodology makes you.
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| younger Muslims are more fundamentalist |
Ah, yes, and coaxed into it by the wayward older mullahs among them. If fundamentalists are already very conservative and close-minded by nature, what pray tell does that make of these youth who are now even moreso?
BigBird:
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| Sound just like the 12 year old Korean kids I used to teach at summer/winter camp |
The youth I speak of range between 15 and 25 and they're not involved in a game of bragging rights in a summer camp cabin. But way to go being so dismissive; saves you having to actually contemplate the consequences of these attitudes. Bet you wouldn't be of this disposition were Anglo youth surveyed with the same results. Nothing like an ideological double-standard, eh?
Adventurer:
You are supposed to sniff the cigar before you smoke it
Gee, thanks for the tip. Who would have known? 
| Quote: |
| all the rioters as some fellows with beards attacking the government is kind of a little too much. |
Where did I state this? Are we reading the same thread? The point is that even if only a handful of Muslim youth harbor such hatred, it must be emanating from some source in the community. Doubtful they would cling to such views if ALL of their elders were making a conscientious effort to dissuade them. Got it now?
What the Turkish and British cases demonstrate is a growing intolerance for difference, for ambiguity, and for freedom of speech. Besides, much of the militant Turkish nationalism is fueled by religious zealotry, if you haven't noticed.
gang an jee:
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| How do you suggest we stand up to these enemies in our midst? How can we force them to assimilate and respect the ideals of the enlightenment and Christianity? |
An excellent and pressing question which it would serve us well to address on this thread. Let me be Socratic; how would you address it? |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| What the Turkish and British cases demonstrate is a growing intolerance for difference, for ambiguity, and for freedom of speech. Besides, much of the militant Turkish nationalism is fueled by religious zealotry, if you haven't noticed. |
No. You have misrepresented the Turkish case. See my thread on Hrant Dink's death in this forum and the information available there.
The current, moderately islamicist government of Turkey is largely opposed by nationalists. The nationalists aren't beneath trying to suck up to conservative religious voters on issues like the university entrance exam points for graduates of religious high schools for votes, but they are not religious zealots.
All I time for as I work my way through my students' surprisingly good midterm papers. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:19 am Post subject: |
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Woland:
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| nationalists aren't beneath trying to suck up to conservative religious voters |
I see what you're driving at. Perhaps I should have qualified my statement but didn't since it's peripheral to the topic, I don't wish to address it at length. Nonetheless, you acknowledge that they tolerate one another out of expediency and that in itself is potentially dangerous.
As an aside, I think it's a mistake for the EU to court Turkish membership. I don't think the Turks are progressive enough in the main. But I must admit that my knowledge of Turkish affairs is quite limited.
What I was getting at but didn't say explicitly is that for far too many Muslims their faith has become their exclusive identity, subsuming even their nationalist leanings. And the tribalism one finds in traditional Muslim culture only serves to diminish the significance of national allegiances, whether in the Middle East, Southeast Asia, North Africa, or Western Europe.
T.E. Lawrence himself expressed exasperation with the Arab tendency toward tribalism despite the desire to confront a common (re: Turkish) adversary. |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
gang an jee:
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| How do you suggest we stand up to these enemies in our midst? How can we force them to assimilate and respect the ideals of the enlightenment and Christianity? |
An excellent and pressing question which it would serve us well to address on this thread. Let me be Socratic; how would you address it? |
Sorry, steve, I'm playing Socrates this round. How do you suggest we stand up to these enemies in our midst? How can we force them to assimilate and respect the ideals of the enlightenment and Christianity?
You've set the terms, now play the game. |
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