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Homer
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 Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Plastic B,
Thats just wrong mate....very wrong.
You have no right to disrespect the soldiers that died in Iraq or the ones that are there now.
You may disagree with their governments choices and offer no sympathy but the soldiers are just doing their duty, putting their lives on the line for something they believe in.
Would you do that? I think not. |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:59 am Post subject: Plastic B, you're STUPID |
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| Plastic B wrote: |
| And I'd ask the 150+ GI's in Iraq, but they are...you guessed it DEAD. Americans get no sympathy from me. Nor do Fascists of any nationality. I do feel sad for the victims of state terrorism wherever it is. But remember who the real terrorists are. The good ol' USA. Ask the Nicaraguans. Or, hey, ask the residents of Hiroshima. Oh, but they are DEAD |
Speaking of victims of state terrirsm, you got to feel sorry for the Palestinians.
Gorge Junior is STUPID if thinks Peace between the Palestinian authority and Israel is possible with Yarafat still alive-hence the good man resignigh.
Is Yasser Arafat DEAD yet-here's hoping one of his own murders him tonight.
HTH |
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Plastic B
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Daejeon no more
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:11 pm Post subject: Stupid eh? And you're Einstein, I suppose... |
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Okay, shoot me down in flames, but here goes (now I actually have the time to formalise a response).
First off, Homer, do you really think the GI's in Iraq actually 'believe' in what they are doing. As far as I can tell they are mostly under-educated grunts from lower socio-economic backgrounds who join the army because it is a way, for many the only way, out of the mire of poverty that many in the US find themselves in.
They find themselves unwillingly in Iraq after having been brainwashed their entire lives by FoxTV, flag waving and by the repeated incantation of the mantra 'dem o cra cy', a word, which very like the Latin Mass, they do not understand. Democracy is NOT the imposition of US will upon the entire world no matter how often Bush and Rumsfeld insist that it is.
How, for instance, can Americans even imagine they live in a democracy when their current President was elected in a fraudulently conducted election in which even the most blindly bigoted Republicans concede was rigged?
The rigid iron jack-heeled boot with which the US stomps on hegemonic dissent is the root cause of anti-American feeling which is certainly growing around the world, hence the repeated attacks on icons of American imperialism, symbolised with succinct and horrifying beauty by the attack on the World Trade Centre buildings.
Does the US Government honestly think it can strut around the globe enforcing its twisted neo-fascism upon independent nations and free-thinking peoples without those oppressed as a result reacting in the only way they know, in fact in the only way available to them, the way they have been taught by their American overlords?
Do Americans as a people support the overt and covert violent methods US foreign policy is enforced upon people throughout the world, just because they happen not to agree with the overlording warmongers of the US military-industrial complex? I hope not. Yet they seem to.
The United States MUST have war, it's entire economy depends upon it, from the production of missiles to the production of Hollywood blockbusters, it is an obscene and sickening degradation of the principles upon which the country was founded. A country established on the premise of the equal rights of mankind, dedicated to freedom, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness FOR ALL. Instead, those ideals have been prostituted by those who impose the right-wing bigoted ugliness of neo-Fascism. And, my friends, if you can't see that, and if you do not rise up and fight against it, then there is very little hope your soul will find any sort of sanctity.
And further, in respect to the boy who calls himself a man...grow up and educate yourself. Your entire slant on US middle-east policy seems informed by Fox and CNN. The attempts by the US to paint Arafat as the personification of evil in no way reflects the regard with which the Palestinian people themselves hold the man. He is in fact, exceedingly popular amongst Palestinians, and the only person with the will and balls to stand up against the Israeli Zionist expansionists.
Don't get me started on Israel, oops, too late. Like an abused child who goes on to become an abuser, Israel has taken on the mantle, assumed the ugliest traits of their Nazi torturers (with the implicit support of the US, I might add), and become the worst kind of ugly murdering terrorists. Israel OUT of the West Bank and Gaza, NOW! |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Stupid eh? And you're Einstein, I suppose... |
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| Plastic B wrote: |
| The attempts by the US to paint Arafat as the personification of evil in no way reflects the regard with which the Palestinian people themselves hold the man. He is in fact, exceedingly popular amongst Palestinians, and the only person with the will and balls to stand up against the Israeli Zionist expansionists. |
Your ignorance of the world makes me quite sad as you say that like you think it's true.
Seriously.
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| Don't get me started on Israel, oops, too late. Like an abused child who goes on to become an abuser, Israel has taken on the mantle, assumed the ugliest traits of their Nazi torturers (with the implicit support of the US, I might add), and become the worst kind of ugly murdering terrorists. Israel OUT of the West Bank and Gaza, NOW! |
You may wish to consider picking up a book or going to a website that details the history of all that has occured. You are rambling on about works of fiction. |
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Skarp
Joined: 22 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Not much discussion here. Just a lot of 'you're wrong cos you are'.
Shall we all leave this topic alone now? Those who want to continue it could go off list via PM.
At the very least it should be in the 'off topic' forum.
Just my opinion.
Skarp |
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Plastic B
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Daejeon no more
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 8:44 pm Post subject: On more American reaction, or is that reactionaries... |
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Hey Gord, if you are going to reply negatively to my posting, why dont you add some meat to your refutation? Your (ahem) argument is fairy floss in the rain.
Strangely enough, I have visited both Israel and Palestine, seen both sides. Have you? I strongly doubt it. If you had been you would recognise the truth of my earlier statements. The Israelis act like bully-boys, only 'allowing' Palestinian participation in any sort of economic activity as underpaid wage-slaves.
Why is it that Americans absolutely cannot stomach any criticism of their country or government? Is it because they know, deep down, that they are a fraud? Thomas Jefferson must be spinning in his grave...
You, Gord, may wish to take off those red, white and blue tinted sunglasses next time you pick up a history book, or visit a website, or maybe, just maybe, switch off Fox. Al Jazeera has a new English language website, you might start there. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: On more American reaction, or is that reactionaries... |
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| Plastic B wrote: |
| You, Gord, may wish to take off those red, white and blue tinted sunglasses next time you pick up a history book, or visit a website, or maybe, just maybe, switch off Fox. Al Jazeera has a new English language website, you might start there. |
I fail to see why you insist on insulting me after spinning a tale of fiction. So tell me, just what is that Arafat has done that makes him a man of peace?
The people love him? More that they don't have a choice.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-mowbray042502.asp
Oh look! PA security forces arresting people who speak out against Arafat. Or banning TV time of opponents running in the election. Or results just being tossed out the window when it was all over anyway.
SURE SOUNDS LIKE ARAFAT LOVES FREEDOM!
Or from the Washington Post in 2002:
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On July 1, 1994, Yasser Arafat entered Gaza to establish the Palestinian Autonomous Region - betwixt-and-between creature of the Oslo peace process that was supposed to become, under the guiding light of the Oslo peace process, the physical base of another ambivalent notion, the Palestinian National Authority.
I went as a reporter to Gaza a few hours before Arafat arrived, and I stayed there for about five weeks, observing the early days of life and governance under the Palestinian Authority.
Arafat's entry into Gaza was an object lesson: a purposely uncaring display of brute power. He arrived from the Sinai in a long caravan of Chevrolet Blazers and Mercedes-Benzes and BMWs, 70 or 80 cars packed to the rooflines with men with guns. The caravan roared up the thronged roads and down the mobbed streets, with the overfed, leather-jacketed, sunglassed thugs of Arafat's bodyguard detail all the time screaming and shooting off their Kalashnikovs to make their beloved people scurry out of their beloved leader's way.
This was the whole of the Palestinian Authority from the beginning, an ugly little cartoon of Middle East despotism. There was never any pretense of democracy, of rule of law, of a free press, of a working system of taxes or courts or hospitals.
There was never any real government. No one ever bothered to build an economy or create jobs or even pick up the trash or pave the streets...
Much can be conceded in the issue of Israel and the Palestinians: The Palestinians have, in their lost land, a great and real grievance; as a moral and practical matter, Israel should admit this, and it should be willing to trade land for peace with its neighbors.
But this is precisely the point: Israel did concede these questions. It has been nearly two years since Israel offered the Palestinians nearly all of the territories occupied in 1967.
Arafat's response has redundantly proved his harshest critics right. There was never any honest intent on the Palestinian part for peaceful coexistence with Israel, any more than there was ever any honest intent to establish a government in Gaza that would function toward that end and toward the creation of a decent life for the Palestinian people.
What the Palestinians seek - what Arafat has encouraged them to seek - is, as is now beyond dispute, the defeat and surrender of Israel. |
Or how he failed to follow the "peace roadmap" that was outlined. There wasn't that much he even had to do that he agreed to, but he refused.
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Phase I: Ending Terror And Violence, Normalizing Palestinian Life, and Building Palestinian Institutions -- Present to May 2003
In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel. Palestinians and Israelis resume security cooperation based on the Tenet work plan to end violence, terrorism, and incitement through restructured and effective Palestinian security services. Palestinians undertake comprehensive political reform in preparation for statehood, including drafting a Palestinian constitution, and free, fair and open elections upon the basis of those measures. Israel takes all necessary steps to help normalize Palestinian life. Israel withdraws from Palestinian areas occupied from September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed at that time, as security performance and cooperation progress. Israel also freezes all settlement activity, consistent with the Mitchell report.
At the outset of Phase I:
Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel�s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel. |
Part 1 of the list wasn't that big, and he accomplished... nothing on it.
We could go on with things like the arms shipments intercepted paid from with money from his office, or how when Israel seiged his office last year they arrested four people in wanted for murders who Arafat the day before claimed he didn't know where they were but was certain they were lovely people, and all sorts of other lovely events. Or how anyone considered a threat to his leadership is detained as "an Israeli collaborator" by PA security forces and often end up dead.
The problem is that if any steps are taken towards peace and resolving the issues, it means he will no longer be king. King Arafat cannot handle becoming a commoner again. You'll note that Abbas specifically listed Arafat a reason he was quitting, claiming that Arafat refused to play along with the peace plan idea nor was Arafat willing to surrender control of his little Kingdom he's built.
As such, don't you dare try to suggest I haven't done my homework. Might I suggest you do the same before you return again with nothing but "oh, this is true, I just can't prove it!" statements that defy reality. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: On more American reaction, or is that reactionaries... |
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| Plastic B wrote: |
Why is it that Americans absolutely cannot stomach any criticism of their country or government? Is it because they know, deep down, that they are a fraud? Thomas Jefferson must be spinning in his grave...
You, Gord, may wish to take off those red, white and blue tinted sunglasses next time you pick up a history book, or visit a website, or maybe, just maybe, switch off Fox. Al Jazeera has a new English language website, you might start there. |
It is endlessly amusing to me that the strident anti-Americans are always c*cksure that anyone who has the temerity to disagree with their hand-me-down socialist dogma is certainly a (boo hiss!) AMERICAN.
Gord, of course, not only did not reference the United States in his response to your posts, he himself is not an American.
But never let facts get in the way of a good diatribe. |
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Plastic B
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Daejeon no more
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:45 am Post subject: back, for the very last time on this topic, I hope |
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Okay Gord, at least you stiffened your argument with some references, but I would scarcely consider, in this day and age at least, that either the Washington Post or The National Review are unbiased bastions of truth.
In my personal experience, admittedly restricted to a brief three week sojourn in Palestine during 1996 ~ a long time ago now, opinions change ~ no Palestinian I met expressed anything other than a positive opinion of Arafat. They actually considered him a moderate!
All this of course is totally 'off topic' and removed from the ideas I expressed regarding how the chickens have come home to roost for the American imperialists, and how they seem to think that being international state terrorists will somehow endear them to oppressed people around the world. Starbucks and MacDonalds mean nothing to people kept too poor to afford them as a direct result of the policies of the US Government.
Did the economic embargo against Iraq work? No. Well, it did manage to starve a lot of Iragis to death, but still couldn't shift Saddam. Anybody here remember Vietnam? Hey, they whupped US backsides, and like the sore losers Yanks are, tried to maintain an embargo on that country. The communists remain in power in Vietnam despite outward tourist-friendly concessions.
Just like they tried against Cuba. Well, Fidel is still there precisely BECAUSE of US domestic interference. Dialogue is the only method which can succeed, coercion never works...
Except maybe in, ooh, Granada. Anybody here remember that heroic action of the friendly democratic Untied States. |
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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003
Location: pusan baby!
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 3:09 am Post subject: |
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| Just out of interest Plastic....what nationality are you? |
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Homer
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Well plastic B I hardly know where to begin to respond to your spleen venting.
You may disagree about the policy of the current US administration. I do. I was never in accord with the way they run US foreign policy. I think its short-sighted, confrontational and aims to provoke.
That being said, this has nothign to do with the common soldier down on the field. Your portrayal of US solders is both insulting and betrays ignorance on your part and a healthy dose of prejudice and narrow mindeness.
Yes some soldiers join the army to escape poverty and some of them are under-educated. What does that have to do with the fact they are not the ones responsible for the war on iraq or the US foreign policy?
Nothing.
They are following orders and doing their duty. What they believe in, at least the ones I know, is doing their duty for their country. They get an objective and they do it. Thats the army mate. The fact that this objective is not the best of objectives is not in question here but in the army, orders are orders. You cannot fault them for their governments actions and choices. They are the ones dying or putting their lives on the line. If you are going to "blame" someone or something, blame the US government for going againts the advice of its joint chiefs, of most experts and into iraq.
This would be a more justified place to lodge your blame.
| Quote: |
| They find themselves unwillingly in Iraq after having been brainwashed their entire lives by FoxTV, flag waving and by the repeated incantation of the mantra 'dem o cra cy', a word, which very like the Latin Mass, they do not understand |
Now thats a good example of the way you like to paint. Lare brush, al inclusive. Did you conduct a survey here? Interview GI's and members of other branches of the service?
sure SOME of them are too patriotic and have been "brainwashed". But, mate, this is the ARMY not University. Speaking of which, many of the soldiers do have education thanks to some of the funding plans the military provides for education. Not all of them, but many of them.
The younger G.I.'s are of course not as educated but these guys are basically kids thrown into the mix.
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| The rigid iron jack-heeled boot with which the US stomps on hegemonic dissent is the root cause of anti-American feeling which is certainly growing around the world, hence the repeated attacks on icons of American imperialism, symbolised with succinct and horrifying beauty by the attack on the World Trade Centre buildings. |
Well written, almost...poetic but, unfortunately quite a gross exageration. The behavior you are talking about is mostly prevalent since the election of Bush and his team. The US is the lone Superpower. It is in a position of dominance and like EVERY country that has been in that position they make mistakes and step on a few toes. This is wrong of course. But, your little poem should indict the rest of the Western world, namely Europe, who created many of the problems that plague the world today.
The anti-americanism is well and alive and many times it is founded. However, it has become a fashion of sorts and is many times what has been call a viceral hate. The US is many times blamed if they do and blamed if they don't. It comes with their position in the word. They make many mistakes but also do good things. You should be able to use perspective here and notice that the policies of the current administration have exacerbated and polarized the anti-amercian feeling.
The strikes you mentionned against the US were symbolic (deadly but symbolic) and aimed at the entire WESTERN WORLD. This has been stated over and over by the militants and extremists. The US as the biggest player is simply the target. They do bad things in the middle east and have taken sides with Israel too many times. Then again, European nations are no better and also act according to self interest in the region, they just get noticed less.
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| The United States MUST have war, it's entire economy depends upon it, from the production of missiles to the production of Hollywood blockbusters, it is an obscene and sickening degradation of the principles upon which the country was founded |
Now this is where you slip into never never land. This is a simplification thats so gross that is any shred of credibility it may have held.
You speak of the US as if it was some monolithic entity bent on war when of course it is not. War is not what the US economy depends on mate. It has profited the US before but this time not so. Just look at the current economic situation and the continued slow economy even since the war in iraq which has made it worse. Nothing is thriving here. You seem to have watched too many movies yourself here.
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| And, my friends, if you can't see that, and if you do not rise up and fight against it, then there is very little hope your soul will find any sort of sanctity. |
Now you bring religion into the mix. why?
What purpose does it serve to do so in this kind of argument?
You also seem to think that you hold the truth and that others who don't adopt your simple and generalistic views are just blind and must "see the light".
This is not a healthy way to debate and could tag you an extremist of sorts.
Finally, I sort of agree with your position on the Isreal situation. I would not rant and rave about it the way you did but in essence it raises good points.
You seem to be however, just as illuminated as the people you accuse of being "evil".... |
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Plastic B
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Daejeon no more
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2003 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Strangely enough Homer, I actually feel sorry for the poor buggers on the ground in Iraq, for a start, it is stinking hot and to be shot at is bad enough, but in fifty degree heat must make it worse.
George Bush Jnr came out with the most honest statement he has ever made today with regard to Iraq, and I quote " the enemies of freedom are making a desperate stand there, and there they must be defeated". It's just a pity that it is he, and Rumsfeld who are the enemies of freedom and it is the poor benighted GI's who must wear the consequences of their petro-chemical induced madness.
In response to Waggo's question, I am Australian, and in no way support the ugly kowtowing of Howard and his butt-sucking to US imperialist interest. He only went 'all the way with GBJ' in order to secure a free trade agreement with the US. Something Singapore managed to do without sending troops for some farcical 'alliance' which consisted only of the US, the discredited Blair UK government, and America's puppy dogs in the South Pacific, Australia.
And finally, in regard to the Palestinian question, did anyone else see this tonight on Discovery channel? The most honest and succinct reading of the situation in the Levant that I've ever seen. And that's rare praise from a cynic like me
Full Record: Behind the Hatred: Mortal Enemies
MRC Home | Filmfinder
Title: Behind the Hatred: Mortal Enemies
Run Time: 47 minutes
Release Date: 2002
Director: C. Scott Willis
Genre: Documentary
Middle East Studies
International Relations
Jewish Studies
Origin: Israel
USA
Format:
Link to holdings and catalogue record. DVD
Description: Subtitled: Mortal Enemies. �This documentary offers an evenhanded assessment of the conflict in the Middle East by profiling the lives of the two men at it center, Israel�s Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the Palestinian Authority�s chairman, Yasir Arafat. A wealth of newsreel footage helps to chronicle the head-on trajectory of these two epic figures.� Among those interviewed: Serge Schmemann [N.Y. Times], Sandy Berger [former NSC advisor], Yossi Alpher [former Mossad official], Nahum Barnea [columnist, Yediot Ahronot], Ziad Abu-Amr [Palestinian Legislative Council], Hanan Ashrawl [Palestinian Legislative Council]. Notes: Produced by the Discovery Channel & the New York Times Television. Produced by John Fielding and Sharon Young. Edited by Adam Fleischhacker, and Geoffrey Richman. Executive Producers, Jane Bornmeier and Ann Derry. NOT AVAILABLE FOR RENTAL.
Strangely enough, it was on Discovery Asia, but when I checked Discovery US, you guessed it...no record of broadcast. Hmmm |
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HardyandTiny
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Gord,
The photograph you have posted is real.
The discussions was about mixing fictional disaster films with non-fictional imagery.
You're not making sense.
| Gord wrote: |
| Alkiwi wrote: |
| Saw the same thing on MBC last nite. Just sitting quietly with my mate eating dinner and both our mouths dropped open. I am not american at all and have quiet honestly got sick of the whole war on terror spiel but was disgusted at the images shown. But then again no one ever said that the Koreans had taste and tact. |
Just so we're clear, it's wrong to show Americans seconds before their deaths, but it's a-ok to show people from other countries seconds before their deaths? In fact, if you do that you'll win awards!
And remember kids, the enemy is ugly. Which is why you'll never see pictures of cute suicide bombers.... NOT WORK SAFE. One of the suicide bombers that detonated a bomb strapped to herself at a concert in Moscow earlier this year. NOT WORK SAFE.
http://aog.2y.net/forum_pics/moscow-3.jpg <- Not Work Safe
http://aog.2y.net/forum_pics/moscow-4.jpg <- Not Work Safe |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2003 2:42 am Post subject: |
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The great moralist Plastic B wrote:
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| I am Australian, and in no way support the ugly kowtowing of Howard and his butt-sucking to US imperialist interest. He only went 'all the way with GBJ' in order to secure a free trade agreement with the US. |
So lemme get this straight, Plastic. When the USA does something sleazy. it is proof that it is a cut-throat imperialist power and not really a democracy and its citizenry is all brainwashed by Fox etc etc. BUT, when Australia decides to participate in the sleaziness in order to make a few bucks, it is simply a case of ONE man John Howard "kow-towing" to the imperialists? Nice way to absolve your countrymen of any moral responsibility there.
The USA is slaughtering Iraqis to secure her own interests. Australia is cheerfully helping her do it. Gangster No. 1, Gangster No. 2. End of story. |
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