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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006
Location: The Road to Ithaca
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 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Am I the only struck by the absurdity of the OP's wish that we all put on a better face for the Korean media when he has what amounts to a pornographic joke as his avatar? |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
My OP was an attack on the level of discourse on this board, the actual things being said, and the complaining that goes on when anything negative is said about foreigners in the Korean media.
When the media says foreigners are evil, dumb, bigotted, intolerant, disrespectful etc, we go nuts. But look at the behaviour that's displayed on this board. IF the things said and the opinions expressed on this board are any indication of the behaviour of foreigners off the board, it's little wonder that the things said about us in the Korean media are being written. I thought people would see the connection, and obviously it was too sutble or unclear.
But not being able to 'think', that's just brilliant and essentially proves my point. Level of discourse is wikipedia and insults. |
I stand by my statement, you are not a thinker mate.
And since it appears you either did not read, or did not understand my last post, you're forcing my to repeat myself.
You posited a direct link between statements on this board and xenophobia in the Korean media. If that's not what you meant to say, don't try to make it into my problem, that's what you wrote. I'm a very good reader, and I do people the honor of presuming that they mean what they are saying. You wrote ...
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| Not going to go on a big long rant, but all these people who come on this board complaining and going ape-poop over what the Korean media says about foreigners need only to look at comments made on this forum every day to understand why they report and say the things they do. |
I've highlighted the salient word for you. You are positing a causative connection between statements on daves and xenophobia in the Korean media. This is so obviously incorrect that it beggars belief. Korean xenophobia is very well documented and goes back long before the internet. Thus, it stands to reason, by all the laws of logic, that statements written on daves simply cannot be the cause of xenophobia in the Korean media, as the latter predates for the former. Statements made on daves may indeed be useful fuel to add to an already raging fire, but that is not what you stated at all.
As for foreigners complaining about negative portrayals in the media, they are obsolutely one hundred percent justified in that. There is just an ever so slight difference between some random, unconnected nutters on a message board, expressing thier own personal opinion, however base, and nationwide, official, government sanctioned, focused xenophobia that actually makes life much more difficult that it would otherwise be for the whole of the esl population. Perhaps that distinction is a bit beyond you, but I put it down for the more lucid ones amoung us.
Finally, what is utterly ironic here, is that you are complaining about the level of discourse here, while actually lowering it with the very post in which you complained. It's as clear as the day is long that you haven't thought this through, and lack logical conceptualisation skills. My advice to you is, the less you say on here, the smarter you will appear... |
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Roch
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| freethought wrote: |
But on the whole the way people carry themselves on this board is abysmal and is growing worse. Much, much worse since I left the first time in May of 05. The language, the insults, the points of view, the bigotry. |
I agree, and you're a prime example.
You're suggesting that negative portrayals of foriegners in Korean media is directly related to things said on this site. That is patently false and displays a lack of logical analytical skills that is frankly quite breathtaking.
Korean society, and by logical extension the media, has had a strong xenophobic undercurrent sinse well before the advent of the internet. This is well documented and not up for debate. The prime motivation of media is to make money, thus media does not "drive" public opinion, it "reflects" public opinion.
I've no doubt this site is read by people in Korean media, and quite possibly things said here are used to support anti foreigner retoric. The key thing to understand however is that the Korean media already had this position a long time ago, and things found on dave will only be used as "ammo" for an already fixed position. The idea that things said here are a direct cause of the anti foriegner bias of Korean media is so far off it's simply absurd.
My advice to OP, stop trying to think, it's not your strong point ... |
Word!
R |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| I put it in this board mainly because that's where a lot of crap goes down. Seriously, 4 mega threads on evolution being false, multiple new threads on global warming being fake every day. I wouldn't want these crazies teaching my kids (mind you I would never send my kid to a hagwon... and I don't have any...). |
Anywhere between 25% and 35% of the Korean population are conservative Christians, and many of them probably have views on evolution similar to the ones expressed by the way-guk creationists on this board. And the 65-75% who aren't Christian have probably encountered creationist ideas from their fellow Koreans, and would not associate such ideas with foreginers specifically.
Any Korean xenophobe who pays attention to Dave's(and can read English) is probably going to focus his attention almost entirely on the threads where people toss around lewd innuendo about K-girls and spew forth locker-room bravado against K-guys, if indeed such threads are still tolerated in the General Forum. (I avoid the place like the plague these days).
If you don't like the content of the Current Events forum, you should just critique that content on its own terms, rather than hiding behind some faux agenda of improving the collective way-guk image in the eyes of Koreans. |
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freethought
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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I really give up with you people.
Maybe you're right, maybe I'm not a thinker. The fact I have an IQ above 170, an MA, work history working for two prime ministers etc certainly doesn't indicate any thought whatsoever.
But here's the thing. The comportment on this board of attacking people, making sweeping comments about Korea(ns) because someone cut in line etc, is rampant, and those that agree with these sentiments abound. If these written sentiments are any indication of the bahaviour in public, then, as I said, I can understand why people in the Korean media write what they do (even though I think 99% of it is total trash).
As to my OP I guess it wasn't phrased clearly enough, but I was addressing it to the people on this board. I never said (in the OP) that the media comes on this board, i said those who use the board should look at it as an example as to why people might write crap about foreigners. So thank you for highlighting the WHY, but you highlighted the wrong part. And this goes to further my point. Instead of discussing the theme, or trying to put your own spin on the op, or constructively explaining any problems you might see, most of the responses involved some sort of personal attack. Which goes toward the point I was trying to make.
As for trying to improve the quality of posts directly, I constantly ask people to post things other than wikipedia articles, to cite academic journal articles and to do actual research rather than citing fringe news stories. For doing that I normally draw ire, am completely ignored, or receive obnoxious and rude responses. The state of affairs and dialogue on the current events forum has gone down considerably, and I've tried the direct approach, and it hasn't worked. instead, while bored out of my mind at work i made this post. And instead of people saying, yes the state of the board is bad, but I disagree or don't understand your media reference, they go on personal attacks and don't really discuss the theme of the post at all. One might call that re-enforcing my point, but at this point i don't really care. Might as well lock or delete this thread, because it hasn't produced anything of value, however, there were a few responses that showed a fair attempt at having an actual discussion. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: ... |
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I believe that OTOH's point is that the CE forum tends to deal with international issues.
Is it anti-Korea? As a long-term participant, I don't think so. I believe that Korea gets a pretty fair shake in CE. What CE is not is a forum for people who just arrived in Korea to whine, moan, and otherwise air their grievances when the honeymoon of living abroad in a very different place ends.
Yes, Korea gets criticized in CE, but I think there are just as many in CE who will defend Korea as will attack it. Above all, I don't know of anyone who regularly posts in CE that I would define as either "anti-Korea" or "pro-Korea".
The topics here tend to deal with international issues. Korea has its part but is not the focal point here.
If Koreans want to read about foreigners and their internal debates about evolution and global warming, more power to them. I don't think we have anything to hide or be ashamed of in this forum.
And, for the record, we very recently had someone come in and try to "clean up" the forum. The result was more a form of censorship than it was an improvement.
I think, over all, the forum discussion rises to the level of it participants. If it's not up to your snuff, then you don't have to participate.
However, if the Korean media ever decided to attack Dave's (and not that they're trying), it wouldn't be because of the CE forum. There aren't posts (and pictures) about who you bagged while you were wasted last weekend (a la Spectrum).
If I can have a moment to vent, it's always the CE forum that gets blamed for negative posts. As if all the other forums around here are all about happiness and pleasantries. That's khaka, and anyone who's spent any amount of time on the rest of the forums knows that.
I'd rather get heated about torture than your favorite pop-tart flavor.
I don't consider myself a bigot, but do bigots post here? Yeah maybe, but that's why there's a "post response" button. I defend all people's rights to speak freely here and be responded to.
Yes. I've said my piece. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Please leave such idiocy to us experts over on General Forum.
tanks.  |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
I really give up with you people.
Maybe you're right, maybe I'm not a thinker. The fact I have an IQ above 170, an MA, work history working for two prime ministers etc certainly doesn't indicate any thought whatsoever.
But here's the thing. The comportment on this board of attacking people, making sweeping comments about Korea(ns) because someone cut in line etc, is rampant, and those that agree with these sentiments abound. If these written sentiments are any indication of the bahaviour in public, then, as I said, I can understand why people in the Korean media write what they do (even though I think 99% of it is total trash).
As to my OP I guess it wasn't phrased clearly enough, but I was addressing it to the people on this board. I never said (in the OP) that the media comes on this board, i said those who use the board should look at it as an example as to why people might write crap about foreigners. So thank you for highlighting the WHY, but you highlighted the wrong part. And this goes to further my point. Instead of discussing the theme, or trying to put your own spin on the op, or constructively explaining any problems you might see, most of the responses involved some sort of personal attack. Which goes toward the point I was trying to make.
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Who cares about your iq? You could so easily be lying and we'll never be able to check that. All we can work with is what you have displayed here, and you have demonstrated very clearly that you lack logical analytical skills, as well as clear writing skills. It appears you are not able to express yourself clearly without prompting and help from others.
We know what you're saying now. But your OP was extremely misleading and poorly worded. I had to force you to include the important clarification "IF the behaviour on the board is any indication of teachers behaviour IN PUBLIC" then it's no wonder the Korean media hates us. You're still completely wrong, let me walk you through it.
First up, behaviour on a message board is inherently NOT an indication of a person's behaviour in public. You are trying to draw a connection between two things that don't even exist on the same conceptual plane.
Secondly, as already stated two times, the attitude of the Korean media to foreigners is not a "response" to any particular behaviour. Behaviour is not the "cause" of the attitude in any way. Korean society and the Korean media had a xenophobic bias long before the internet. I'm going to keep saying this as many times as I have to until you get it. You are trying to posit a chain of causality like this ...
Poor Internet Behaviour indicates poor behaviour in public which causes Korean media bias ...
Both of your connections are incorrect. So high iq or not, you have displayed a distinct lack of logical thought here. Not only that, but you've been corrected several times and refused to be helped. This makes you talking about raising the level of discourse rather preposterous.
If you were to drop your spurious assertions of connection between completely disparate elements and simply say "The anti Korean posts on the board annoy me" you would at least be more honest, and we'd be able to take you a little more seriously... |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| I put it in this board mainly because that's where a lot of crap goes down. Seriously, 4 mega threads on evolution being false, multiple new threads on global warming being fake every day. |
....have you ever read any actual negative reports about foreigners in Korea? They never really mention anything about us not believing in evolution. |
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Xerxes
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Location: Down a certain (rabbit) hole, apparently
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: |
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You know, Europeans have always complained that Americans are their xenophobic, distant cousins, and while (US) American myself, I can see where that comes from.
It isn't as institutionalized as it is in Korea (with it being carried on in the media, as the OP as astutely stated the obvious in some trollish fashion--the "I have an IQ the size of Texas" exempli gratia), but you only have to see the divisions in the US of any major city by ethnicities, and especially the whites among only other whites, lest the price of real estate fall, to know this. I am not an apologist for Korea, but the "ugly American" term came about for a reason, I merely point out.
There, I've addressed the OP's intended topic (however carelessly it--the OP--was worded).
(On a side note, I do agree that the General Discussion forum is boorish in its angst and vulgarity, but there is wit there, though I do agree few and from few The CE forum, alack alack, is anemic of it--though I agree too that it never claimed that as its calling card. What is wit to do, then? What to do, what to do--Good broadside there though, JongnoG! If OTOH, however, had that wit and humor to that sharp agile mind, oh my giddy stars, we would have cause to talk a bit. I have other favorite posters too but more is more company ) |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| freethought wrote: |
I really give up with you people.
Maybe you're right, maybe I'm not a thinker. The fact I have an IQ above 170, an MA, work history working for two prime ministers etc certainly doesn't indicate any thought whatsoever.
But here's the thing. The comportment on this board of attacking people, making sweeping comments about Korea(ns) because someone cut in line etc, is rampant, and those that agree with these sentiments abound. If these written sentiments are any indication of the bahaviour in public, then, as I said, I can understand why people in the Korean media write what they do (even though I think 99% of it is total trash).
As to my OP I guess it wasn't phrased clearly enough, but I was addressing it to the people on this board. I never said (in the OP) that the media comes on this board, i said those who use the board should look at it as an example as to why people might write crap about foreigners. So thank you for highlighting the WHY, but you highlighted the wrong part. And this goes to further my point. Instead of discussing the theme, or trying to put your own spin on the op, or constructively explaining any problems you might see, most of the responses involved some sort of personal attack. Which goes toward the point I was trying to make.
As for trying to improve the quality of posts directly, I constantly ask people to post things other than wikipedia articles, to cite academic journal articles and to do actual research rather than citing fringe news stories. For doing that I normally draw ire, am completely ignored, or receive obnoxious and rude responses. The state of affairs and dialogue on the current events forum has gone down considerably, and I've tried the direct approach, and it hasn't worked. instead, while bored out of my mind at work i made this post. And instead of people saying, yes the state of the board is bad, but I disagree or don't understand your media reference, they go on personal attacks and don't really discuss the theme of the post at all. One might call that re-enforcing my point, but at this point i don't really care. Might as well lock or delete this thread, because it hasn't produced anything of value, however, there were a few responses that showed a fair attempt at having an actual discussion. |
I have a high IQ as well. You also forget what Daniel Goleman talked about - EQ i.e. emotional intelligence. Prejudice is wrong from any group. If the Korean media slams foreigners in a prejudicial way then it is simply wrong. The media in Canada and the U.S. do not engage in such blatant prejudice. So why should it be okay for Korea if Korea seeks to be a first world country?
As far as some of the things said about Korea, in many cases it is true.
I was at Homever waiting to try on some clothes, and this lady clearly saw I was ahead of her and still went in. I was quite pissed off, and I kind of said things loud enough for her to hear, and she quickly got out of the dressing room. Maybe, it was because I voiced my displeasure. Of course, I have seen plenty of kindness, but the Korean people do need to work on those people in their country who think rudeness to foreigners is acceptable. I generally say good things about Koreans, for the record.
No matter what people say on Dave's ESL, it is not professional for anyone in the Korean media to use that to malign foreign teachers working in Korea. Anyway, I have recently seen the Korean media attacking how foreigners are abused, so I am giving them some credit.
The media need to be professional, and you cannot excuse any unprofessional behaviour whatsoever. |
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Xerxes
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Location: Down a certain (rabbit) hole, apparently
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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We poster boys have been bandying about our intellectual quiche in public lewdly, me thinks, as if they be manly inches!
I was tested once to be 70 when an over-enthused father proclaimed his issue genius and had it tested with me along for the prodding. I picked my nose most of the time, and well I thumbed them (answers), it seems!
So, 70 it is. 70 is, by the way, the sense of a horse, and I am proud of my horse sense. (I have not been tested recently; jitters of tests and needles and doctors, oh my, after that experience in my wee youth; I think I am bigger than all yous now, don't ye gather so of my intellectual girth? Head, as it were. Quiche? Anyone?).
So, why do the Koreans? |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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*PHHBBT*
The Korean media doesn't hate us. They love us... Well, they love money. Sensationalism brings in money. And what's more sensationalistic than the tried and true "Evil foreigners are going to destroy our civilization"?
It's the same back home. If the shoe was on the other foot and people were watching a report about illegal immigrants and foreigners (Muslims) not adapting to local ways, a lot of people who complain about the Korean media would be like, "Kick the bums out of my country! I go better post on ESL Cafe about this threat to western civilization these foreigner pose!"
But the only reason some folks get cranky when the Koreans do it is because they're on the receiving end of it this time. |
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jhaelin
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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this is for the OP...
save your energy man.
no matter how much elequence, elegance and subtlety you may use to pose your arguments here,
if it's falling on deaf ears, you're just gonna frustrate yourself.
ironically on this site,
the more logical, clear, and relevant you make your arguments,
the less rational, understandable, and to the point will be the responses.
definitely don't use subtley to flavor your ideas, because the room you leave for readers to roam thoughtfully, will be used against you has they drag the trash in and take up all the space.
what worries me is whether some of these folks actually don't get it...
or worse...
they do get it!
and the garbage/noise they use to drown out any effective discourse is just part of their secret agendas.
i know i'm being obscure and perhaps paranoid...but... |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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Idle opinions on a message board are not legitimate news sources.
The Korean media surely realises that they can only make newsworthy reports on the actions of foreigners, not how we think.
And if they had any perspective they'd see that even the worst actions of foreigners here are still not newsworthy.
As a former journalist I know that you have to write whatever sells newspapers. The Korean media plays to the xenophobia of koreans because they know it appeals to the historic Korean sense of unity against outsiders. They're irresponsible, but to Koreans profit is all that matters. A completely objective, unemotive and independent newspaper just wouldn't make it here. |
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